Would you buy a pedigree cat if?

[Soupie]

If you came across this website would you buy a kitten?

The breeder doesn't give the registered pedigree names of her stud cat or the mother of the kittens nor does she display their own pedigrees as most breeders do these days.

The breeder will only sell the kittens as pets which will be "unregistered" but still wants pet pedigree prices for them! Selling for pet only is not unusual of course but every breeder I know always registers even the "pet" kittens on the non-active register.

How many people would pay going rate (they are slightly cheaper but only about £75) for a pedigree kitten with no papers and therefore no proof it is one?

The breeder appears to be trying to follow GCCF guidelines - they will come with kitten pack and insurance at 12 weeks old and with all vaccs etc - perhaps she doesn't know about the non-active register for nonbreeding peds or scarier still is the inference to the more suspicious of us that these are not able to be registered as the parents are on the non-active register and therefore their offspring CAN'T be registered :?

Sorry for the bit of a rant but there are enough non pedigree and pedigree kittens around without breeding "pedigree" kittens which will never have any papers ..... Is there really a market for them especially at near full registered pedigree price? Am I just being naive and this actually happens all the time?

[random]

No, personally if I wanted a ped i'd get one with papers and one which I knew it's full history and parents. Sounds a bit fishy to me. I'd at least want to see their parents pedigrees e.t.c.

[babycakes]

OOO I know what I think and it's not nice but there are so many qualified breeders on this site which will give sound backed up advice to this I'm sure

[Kazz]

Nope I wouldn't be expect many will.

[borderdawn]

Sadly Soupie I expect there will be. I wouldnt, most on here wouldnt, but this person obviously has a market and is doing ok.

Now my website is up and running again, Ill make mention of such things in the "good breeders" guide when I do it.
Dawn.

[dandysmom]

I wouldn't buy from them; sounds quite fishy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the parents were on the non active register. What a shame .....

[Soupie]

Sadly Soupie I expect there will be. I wouldnt, most on here wouldnt, but this person obviously has a market and is doing ok.

Now my website is up and running again, Ill make mention of such things in the "good breeders" guide when I do it.
Dawn.

Thanks Dawn and everyone else for their replies. It's something I feel very strongly about particularly the price that is being charged for these kittens :mad: After all it is not that expensive to register each kitten is it in the scheme of things?

Fingers crossed the breeders of the two stud cats one male and one female will contact this breeder if they are on the non active register - it's been brought to the attention of the relevant breed chat lists ;)

[Jac]

I think this person is up to something.

I bought Caspurr from a "recognised" breeder. I got to see Dad but not Mum???? We all know the health problems I've had with the wee man.

I still dont have his pink slip which isn't important as he is a pet but I kept my contract with her. I do have his pedigree though, for all it's worth.

[Kay]

I definitely wqouldn't buy a kitten from this breeder or anyone similar. I would think that the breeding cats are on the non-active register and she therefore can't register them. This could so easily be found out by the new owners who can apply to register them and would obviously be told by the GCCF about their parents status. She is playing a very silly game if this is what she is doing.
The fact that she doesn't put her cats pedigree on the website doesn't surprise me as a lot of breeders don't do this because backstreet breeders can copy cats names from a pedigree off the internet and make their own pedigrees up. The fact that she doesn't put any of her cats pedigree names does however worry me.
She isn't following GCCF guidelines as they state that a pedigree kitten must be sold with registration documents and, unless agreed by both parties, and at least a 3 generation pedigree showing registered names, numbers and colours of all ancestors. If no registration is supplied then the pedigree along with a mating certificate should be given to the new owner so they can register the kitten.
I hope the relevant breed club/clubs do something and bring this to the attention of the GCCF.

[Soupie]

I definitely wqouldn't buy a kitten from this breeder or anyone similar. I would think that the breeding cats are on the non-active register and she therefore can't register them. This could so easily be found out by the new owners who can apply to register them and would obviously be told by the GCCF about their parents status. She is playing a very silly game if this is what she is doing.
The fact that she doesn't put her cats pedigree on the website doesn't surprise me as a lot of breeders don't do this because backstreet breeders can copy cats names from a pedigree off the internet and make their own pedigrees up. The fact that she doesn't put any of her cats pedigree names does however worry me.
She isn't following GCCF guidelines as they state that a pedigree kitten must be sold with registration documents and, unless agreed by both parties, and at least a 3 generation pedigree showing registered names, numbers and colours of all ancestors. If no registration is supplied then the pedigree along with a mating certificate should be given to the new owner so they can register the kitten.
I hope the relevant breed club/clubs do something and bring this to the attention of the GCCF.


Kay the lack of their pedigree names concerned me most and the fact she does not appear to be looking at developing a line - just one male and one female. Not abnormal when starting out breeding but the whole website just seems :shock: to me.

I am actually considering reporting it myself as I am a member of two breed clubs which cover this breed but wasn't sure if I were doing the right thing.

[Kay]

I would definitely report it to the relevant breed clubs. It may just be someone starting out but it doesn't sound like it.

[Soupie]

Update on this - the website has now been updated with more information and all cats have now got the site owners prefix BUT the breeders of the cats have been traced for some of the cats and they ARE on the non active register and were sold as pets but not early neutered.

They are also breeding Devons with Sphynx which is a bit :shock: in breeding circles in this country.

[Jac]

Has the breeder been reported? She/he needs shot!

[sarahd]

Sadly these things do happen and people do buy kittens / cats on the active register and go on and breed them. Usually they claim it was an accidental mating that took them by surprise (yeah right!). If you know a cat has to be neutered / spayed by a certain age there should be no surprises in an ideal world.
Sadly again there is not a lot breeders can do about it if a cat has been sold on non active register and still been bred from. The only possible solution to this is for breeders to withhold pink slips until proof of spaying / neutering has been seen but then thats not fool proof if someone is hell bent on breeding regardless.
I can always remember one such person contacting me when i first started breeding asking for an active registered price of a queen, when i told her she then said whats the pet price which in turn i told her. I also made a point of saying the cats pink slip would be withheld until proof of spaying had been seen as by this point i had smelt a rat and my instincts didn't pick up good vibes. She then proceeded to ask what if the cat got pregnant by accident. Needless to say a few choice words were exchanged and she didnt get one of my kittens.

Sarah
x

[Soupie]

Actually in this case the breeder is being reported to Trading Standards so hopefully there will be some comeback and will be reported to GCCF as well.

[Jac]

Great!!! Will you let us know what happens?

[sarahd]

Fingers crossed something will come of it.

Sarah
x

[Kay]

This is the very reason that all my kittens, without exception, are sold with a contract and pet kittens with a spay/neuter agreement. I have had an occasion to consult a solicitor on the legal implications of my contract when I took back Eddie and Jilly for neglect and was told that the contract is legal and binding. I could have gone to court if the person involved had refused to give me the cats back. So their are things breeders can do if they have a good contract.

[Soupie]

Thing is Kay most breeders contracts are "legal and binding" but that does not mean they are enforceable in a Court of Law.

In fact it is the opinion of most lawyers I know that many breeders contracts whilst all legal and valid contracts would not be enforced by a Court at all as Courts can take a dim view of someone selling an animal but trying to retain control and place conditions :?

It still requires people to be genuine therefore!

[Kay]

Then I must have a very good solicitor as he has gone to court with such contracts and won. He told me that the person concerned in my case would not have a leg to stand on in court.
The reason breeders do not take it any further isn't because they don't stand a chance, although that is probably what they will tell people, it is because it can be expensive and drawn out. But I guess it all depends on how much a certain breeder wants too protect their babies.

[Soupie]

Then I must have a very good solicitor as he has gone to court with such contracts and won. He told me that the person concerned in my case would not have a leg to stand on in court.
The reason breeders do not take it any further isn't because they don't stand a chance, although that is probably what they will tell people, it is because it can be expensive and drawn out. But I guess it all depends on how much a certain breeder wants too protect their babies.

Actually in my experience the reason most breeders don't take it further is because their contract won't stand up or rather the clause they seek to rely on won't stand up! As you say your solicitor has been successful so far with the contract he has drafted and they can stand up if drafted properly - in my experience though most aren't drafted properly and wouldn't be enforced. Even a well drafted one may contain clauses which wouldn't be enforced - it really can depend which part of the contract has been breached and whether the court considers the term to be "fair" or not.

I would argue that certain clauses I know are in many contracts will not stand up to the "fairness" tests but contracts do vary from breeder to breeder and some have clauses which are very shall we say "extreme" ;)

A good solicitor won't tell someone something is unforceable if it is enforceable but we always advise on costs implications - it is then up to the client whether to pursue the matter or not.

I always try and put the other side of this when it comes up as many people assume a contract being "legal" is enough - it's not!

[Kay]

My contract was not drafted up by my solicitor I drafted it myself and I do not have any legal training, and neither were the cases he won. If the contract is signed by both parties then it is legal and binding as it has been deemed to have been agreed by both parties. The police were initially invovlved in my case by the other party but even they would not do anything for her because of the contract.
I have been breeding for 7 years now and I know of several breeders who have had occassion to take people to court and they have all won. They are all in different parts of the country so have therefore used different lawyers and courts etc. I dare say there have been cases that have failed but if done right contracts do protect the cat.

[Soupie]

I think you are missing my point - I am making the distinction between legal contract and enforceable contract - one should never assume the first is always the second - yes it should be and often is but there are a considerable number of breeder cases which also fail and it is nothing to do with the contract not being valid but with it not being enforceable.

[Kay]

I do get your point but the contracts are the best option for breeders and are, as you say, enforceable in some cases. I do realise that some cases fail as in all areas of law.

[Saracatz]

Going back to your original question.
Personally I would not pay that sort of money for a kitten not registered with gccf or similar, its not so much the money but as they do not seem happy to name the parents I would be worried about in breeding and buying a kitten that could have many health issues.