Is 5 litters too much? (off topic posts from GD thread)

[Fran]

Originally Posted by borderdawn

You quote one off fees there Fran of £850 and that was for 2 different dogs. Say 10 puppies at what? 550-600 pounds each, not bad really. If you want to go further, say 4 litters, averaging 8 per litter...........!! and thats per dog! People do NOT breed puppies for nothing. Most will breed to keep one for themselves, I totally agree with this, many do not, thats when its for profit alone, couldnt possibly be for any other reason.

Hang on a minute Dawn, those are only my expenses within the last couple of months, not total expenses. The cost of raising a litter, washing, heat, food, whelping items, vets bills, vet checks on puppies, worming, Frontline, C sections, oxytocin, KC registrations, puppy packs, the list goes on and on Dawn. and where on earth are you getting the figure of £550-600 from I have never sold a puppy for that amount of money

Edited to add that I haven't bred a litter for 18 months, is this classed as breeding excessively?

[smudgley]

If there's one topic that we always fall out over, it's breeding.... I'm keeping out of this one now.

[Fran]

Originally Posted by borderdawn

take out £1000 for rearing etc... £13.500!!! PROFIT!!!

I'm sorry Dawn but you must be out of touch, you cannot prepare for, get your girl pregnant and rear a litter for a £1000 add to this the outlay before pups come and possible scenario of no pups and you are seriously out of pocket...

[borderdawn]

Originally Posted by Fran

Hang on a minute Dawn, those are only my expenses within the last couple of months, not total expenses. The cost of raising a litter, washing, heat, food, whelping items, vets bills, vet checks on puppies, worming, Frontline, C sections, oxytocin, KC registrations, puppy packs, the list goes on and on Dawn. and where on earth are you getting the figure of £550-600 from I have never sold a puppy for that amount of money

Edited to add that I haven't bred a litter for 18 months, is this classed as breeding excessively?

Raising a litter? ok.
Food, what £2/300? thats for about 4/5wks?

Oxytocin. Peanuts, you can buy a bottle for £10!

Whelping items. You mean the ones breeders buy for the first time only and usually last a life time anyway? Like whelping boxes, heat lamp etc?

C-sections. Not that often if you want to use the Labrador as an example, MUCH more likely in Border Terriers though.

I have never sold a puppy for that amount of money

I wasnt quoting you, but Labs do sell for around that amount dont they.

Originally Posted by Fran

I'm sorry Dawn but you must be out of touch, you cannot prepare for, get your girl pregnant and rear a litter for a £1000 add to this the outlay before pups come and possible scenario of no pups and you are seriously out of pocket...

Yes, i agree no pups and you are out of pocket, however this is nOT the object of the exercise is it?

Dont worry folks Fran and I know eachother well enough to have a barney and still be friends afterwards.

[Fran]

Originally Posted by borderdawn

Oxytocin. Peanuts, you can buy a bottle for £10!

I have to pay for a vet consultation and for them to administer it usually out of hours in my case I can't get hold of it for £10 bottle so if you know where I can then please let me know

Whelping items. You mean the ones breeders buy for the first time only and usually last a life time anyway? Like whelping boxes, heat lamp etc?

Stuff wears out Dawn, for this forthcoming litter, I need new vetbed and I buy the original vetbed not cheap imitations, I need new heat bulbs for my heat lamps, I need varnish for my whelp box... I need new Dopram V drops and the list goes on

C-sections. Not that often if you want to use the Labrador as an example, MUCH more likely in Border Terriers though.

I've had two C sections Dawn and a friend of mine's lab had a C section and died, she was left to raise the pups. More common than you would think. C Sections are not that common in Meezers (changing the subject here) but out of the 3 litters I have bred, I have had one section. I don't think you can really generalise. Complications in labour can and do happen in every breed of cat and dog.


but Labs do sell for around that amount dont they.

Well if they do, then I need to put my prices up



Yes, i agree no pups and you are out of pocket, however this is nOT the object of the exercise is it?

No it's not but you have to be aware that this is a very real possibility, I know someone this happened to very recently.

Dont worry folks Fran and I know eachother well enough to have a barney and still be friends afterwards.

Yes that's the most realistic comment you have come out with this evening Dawn

Dawn, I'll retire from posting further. This is after all a cat forum. I think we know each other well enough to know where we both stand with this debate

[borderdawn]

Originally Posted by Fran

Dawn, I'll retire from posting further. This is after all a cat forum. I think we know each other well enough to know where we both stand with this debate

Ok Lets have a run down shall we?
I need new vetbed and I buy the original vetbed not cheap imitations, I need new heat bulbs for my heat lamps, I need varnish for my whelp box... I need new Dopram V drops and the list goes on
vetbed, yes, I paid £24 for 2 large pices at LKA in December.
Heat bulb. £7.50.
Varnish? I cannot belive you would include that!
Dopram V- £8.95 plus VAT £10.50

Travelling (which I personally wouldnt include, but anyway..) £30?

Got the whelping box, got cleaner I would imagine, got the lamp.

Stud fee £400

Obviously cant include feeding mom, she ate before she was pregnant too!

Puppy food. £300?

How are we doing?


Litter registration £12 per pup, say 10 in this litter £120.

Oxytocin jab £20?

Puppy check £50? max!
Puppy packs are free as is the 6 weeks insurance, pedigrees are free too, if you want your own type, then thats a voluntary cost as far as I am concerned.

Total so far £962. 10 pups in the litter, breeder keeps none, Just under £1000 outlay, £4000 profit on pups sold for £500. Am I still way off?

[Fran]

Dawn, this really is my last post as this is a cat forum and seemingly there is only you and I interested in this debate. Regards the Oxytocin jabs. My vets charge £25 before they have even examined the bitch. Out of hours this rises to £80. I always have oxcytocin administered after delivery and this is extra to any that is needed during labour. £20 comes no where near to the final bill I have for these jabs Plus which I have vet bills for premate testing and no my vet bill for puppy checks is not as little as £50. It's £15 per pup. I would be really grateful if you would let me know where I could get the Dopram drops that cheap as seriously, I pay a hell of a lot more for them. The thing is Dawn, it's not what each individual item costs, it's the cumulative effect of all these little bits and bobs and bigger bits and bobs. The electric bill following a litter for heating and washing is emense not to mention the wear and tear on the washer and dryer and the wash powder etc. Yes it all seems menial but it does add up! I can honestly tell you that hand on heart, I have never raised a litter for less or anywhere near a £1000 perhaps it's just me, maybe I need to charge more for my pups, maybe I need to cut corners but your figures for rearing a litter really are way off

[borderdawn]

Originally Posted by Fran

Dawn, this really is my last post as this is a cat forum and seemingly there is only you and I interested in this debate. Regards the Oxytocin jabs. My vets charge £25 before they have even examined the bitch. Out of hours this rises to £80. I always have oxcytocin administered after delivery and this is extra to any that is needed during labour. £20 comes no where near to the final bill I have for these jabs Plus which I have vet bills for premate testing and no my vet bill for puppy checks is not as little as £50. It's £15 per pup. I would be really grateful if you would let me know where I could get the Dopram drops that cheap as seriously, I pay a hell of a lot more for them. The thing is Dawn, it's not what each individual item costs, it's the cumulative effect of all these little bits and bobs and bigger bits and bobs. The electric bill following a litter for heating and washing is emense not to mention the wear and tear on the washer and dryer and the wash powder etc. Yes it all seems menial but it does add up! I can honestly tell you that hand on heart, I have never raised a litter for less or anywhere near a £1000 perhaps it's just me, maybe I need to charge more for my pups, maybe I need to cut corners but your figures for rearing a litter really are way off

I KNEW you would include washing and electric! Why? What extra washing is there, apart from the vet bed? You are putting costs onto owners that are ridiculous and if you genuinely say you do not breed fro money why dont you (or others) charge an minimum fee of say £60 per pup? Because you have bred them to gain from! Even if I said £2000 to raise a normal litter you wouldnt be happy, even though that would still be 3 grand profit! because you feel its justified, likewise the 5 litters, I dont, thats where we disagree, "using" animals to profit from doesnt figure highly with me and thats what a lot of breeders do. (NOT saying you) I know the GD use their bitches for a specific purpose but still IMO its too much and they are just a usable commodity, a tool to which to gain from. I agree they are cared for beautifully, but when you look at some of the haggered faces and bodies on these poor dogs its awful.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[smudgley]

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[EmmaG]

My mum paid £600 each for her chocolate lab puppies (both boys), they are both KC Registered and come from good quality parents, they are now (I think) 6 years old, so I am not sure what current prices would be.