split thread , kitten prices [Archive]

belladiablo

15-07-2005, 05:42 PM

It does sound expensive doesn't it, I do know how you feel from when I first began looking! The way I look at it though you are buying another family member. If you think how much you would spend on a tv or stereo system without really being surprised at the price. Yet even if the most inexpensive moggie were ill, and you had no insurance, you would spend any amount of money to save that little life!

I know most people assume that breeders are taking the mickey with prices, and it is so easy to see how many a breeder will have in one litter and times the two amounts! This is just not a realistic thing to do though, as the breeder will have costs that will not even occur to you! My own vet bills are horrendous, for even the most simple thing!

What you have to consider is, when we buy a girl, we are paying just to begin with the prices above ourselves, maybe with the included cost of importing. If we don't have our own stud boy (prices above), we would then have to find a breeder willing to stud, then test, and maybe deflea and worm 24 hrs before a visit.
and then you have the stud fee to pay, which will cost anywhere
between
£350 - £800. Most breeders would offer another free mating should the
first one not take, but the tests will have to be repeated. No
breeder
that I know though, would continually offer to take the female if she
does not fall pregnant, and it could cost an awful lot of money to
find her sterile!
This is before you even consider the cost of raising, vaccinating, and registering the kittens with the appropriate body!
This is with all going well, and no problems, such as a c section if the
queen cannot deliver!!

A pregnant queen herself, can eat far more, and nothing like when they are feeding kittens, maybe four times the normal amount of food, and the extra litter to cover the amount of food (it all has to go somewhere!).

As an example, I only have a couple of small litters here at the mo, and yesterday brought 3 packs of whiskas kitten supermeat, I had to get some more earlier!
Since May, I have used over 60 bags of cat litter @ 30 litres a bag, which costs around £8 each!
One of the main differences in price is the rarity, and the extra money put into getting a certain breed or colour! You would be shocked at the amount of money it can be to import a cat into the UK, but this needs to be done to keep a good gene pool, and not 'inbreed' as much as can be helped!

From a breeders point of view though, I think this lovely poem says it all;

I love my little kitty, she makes my house a home.
She always is my best friend, I never feel alone.
She makes me smile, she makes me laugh,
She fills my heart with love ...
Did some breeder breed her, or did she fall down from above?
I've never been a breeder, seen life through their eyes,
I hold my little kitty and just sit and criticise.
I've never known their anguish, I've never felt their pain,
The caring of their charges, through snow or wind and rain.
I've never sat the whole night, waiting for babies to be born,
The stress and trepidation when they're still not here by dawn.
I've never felt the heartache, of a little life in my hands,
This darling little baby, who weighs but 60 grams.
Should you do that instead of this ....or this instead of that,
Alone you fight, and hope one day, he'll grow to be a cat,
and bring joy to another being, and make a house a home,
You know it's all just up to you, you'll fight this fight alone.
Formula, bottles, heating pads, you've got to get this right,
Two hourly feeds for this tiny guy, throughout the day and night.
In your heart you know, you're almost sure to lose the fight,
to save this little baby, but God willing ... you just MIGHT.
Day one he's in there fighting, you say a silent prayer,
Day two & three, he's doing well, with lots of love and care.
Day four & five . he's still alive, your hopes soar to the heavens,
Day six he slips away again, dies in your hands day seven.
You take this little angel, and bury him alone,
With aching heart and burning tears, and an exhausted groan,
You ask youself "Why do I do this? ... why suffer all this pain?"
But when you see the joy your kittens bring... it really self explains.
So, when you think of breeders and label them with "greed",
Think about what they endure to fill another's need.
When you buy a kitten and with your precious pounds part,
You only pay with money ... we pay with our heart

©Heather Field 2003

luggage16

15-07-2005, 06:48 PM

aww thats lovely :)
believe me if i had the money i would pay it without question! Problem is me and my partner have just bought a house, are saving for a wedding and hoping to have a baby in the next couple of years and so are trying to be careful with the pennys! Maybe one day.....
till then i will have to find a couple of moggies to spoil

Mags

15-07-2005, 06:49 PM

What an excellent view of things from the breeder's eyes Sue, I found it extremely interesting and informative....thanks!

We have a regular member here called Sam who breeds Persians and I could see her in that poem. She has told us of the heartbreak of nursing and feeding her babies 24 hours a day and the despair she feels when one of the little ones doesn't make it. It makes one feel emotional just reading it....

belladiablo

15-07-2005, 07:18 PM

Thanks Mags

Just hope I didn't 'get on my high horse' too much. It is the hardest job I have ever done, and like anyone else, expect to get 'paid' for the work I do. Sometimes I long though for my old job, regular pay packet, flexi time ha ha ha!!! I am sure Sam would be able to tell everyone more, as from the posts I have read with great interest of hers, she has been doing this way longer than I have. Have also started mine on the meat diet she has reccomended, and never thought the vegetable idea would work, they all went for it big time! Now just have to wait and see if it is too much for the Bengal, as they are known for their sensitive tummies! I am still learning though, and am sure I will be learning all the time!

I did read somewhere though, that the average litter, of an average breed, (this is about £50 less for a kitten roughly), will earn a breeder £60 per month. I am sure that most of the people earning a living out there, would not even get out of bed in the morning for that, considering the hours a breeder sometimes has to do!

Thanks ever so much though luggage 16, it is not often that kitten prices are discussed openly and honestly, and I think, on behalf of most breeders, that it should be! We are all hard working and honest, and yes, for the rarer breeds, in my honest opinion, the price should be higher! Don't forget, that according to most cat club rules, (like the GCCF, FIFE etc), pedigree cats should not be sold until the age of 13 weeks minimum, with vaccinations, whereas, most dog breeds, can be sold at eight weeks, without vaccs! Yet people are never surprised at the cost of a pedigree dog! I must say though, before receiving a barrage of abuse, ha ha ha! That many dog breeders now seem to be adopting the idea of doing the vaccs first, and also there now seems to be an active and non active self regulating idea amongst some of the dog breeders.

I do hope that this helps to dispel the myth, that all cat breeders are rich, :-D :-D :-D , and care more about money than their cats! When I first started breeding, I was quite frankly quite scared of asking for money for my babies, time, and being so hard up from breeding has cured me of that, and also feel that if I don't value my babies properly who will?

I also hope that I have not offended anyone with this post, I just wanted to show people that money usually is not even in most breeders minds with a poorly kitten, just please get well!

I will also a bit later, try and show some piccies of my past kitten customers, and I think the joy on their faces with their new 'baby' are also worth a thousand words!!

Suexx

Fran

15-07-2005, 07:21 PM

I disagree with the cost thing - pedigree cats are grossly over priced. In my experience raising puppies involves much more cost and effort than raising kittens. There is absolutely no money in dog breeding if you do it correctly. and I would never sell any of my puppies regardless of colour or quality for any more or less than an other. They all cost the same to raise regardless, come from the same parents who have had the health checks done, whether the puppy is of crufts standard or a couch potato..... paying in excess of a thousand pounds for a kitten is absurd. You are not telling me that at £800 + per kitten you don't make money????? And in my opinion breeding is all about bettering the breed not making money!! C section in cats is quite rare. I know of 2 vets that have gone through to retirement without ever having to perform a C section on a cat....My last litter of puppies had to be born by C section - that was the price of one pup straight away and I had no guarentee that I would have had any surviving pups....The stud fee took the price of my second pup, cost of feeding mum and babies - the third, health tests for mum the fourth, KC registration, 5 generation pedigrees and puppy packs the fifth and so it goes on. I raised my last litter of pups at a substantial loss but for me it is not about the money it is about producing healthy, happy and well adjusted dogs that are as near to the breed standard as possible..

belladiablo

15-07-2005, 07:33 PM

Hey PK.
Please don't think I was getting at dog breeders, as I was not! I would imagine that it costs around the same to raise a litter! Cats on the right food are not cheap, and they can eat loads! Also with dogs, you don't have the litter to think of, tiny syringes and nipples if you have to foster! I am honestly not saying that dogs vs cats are any harder or easier. Just that most people expect cats for free! Or for a very low price! This was just the way it has been for years. Yes, breeding or show cats are more expensive, but I have yet to sell a stud or queen, and mostly sell to pet kitten customers, so no, I have not made a fortune, and very likely won't! If you think £800 is high for a kitten, then you will have to think of the people who sold their kittens for at least £1950, for a pet sbt. Yes, they made money, had a very nice house, and lot's of land on which they kept rescue animals, wallabies, rhea's etc! They had no life though, so what is best?

I had hoped not to offend anyone with this post, but it seems I have, so I apologise for that, but not for my kitten prices. This I work hard for, and if I charged any less, would be out of step, and undermining other breeders, which is not fair and right!
Suexx

Fran

15-07-2005, 08:00 PM

I have bred both cats and dogs and I can honestly say dogs are a lot more hard work and expense!!! Fair enough dogs don't require litter but I have to worm my bitches from day 40 in whelp up until 2 days post whelp and the size of them imagine that cost! Maddie was mated recently she has had 2 courses of antibiotics already at a cost of £26 each course plus the consultation fees...add to that the stud fee plus she has to have her eyes tested yearly for inherited eye conditions. Fair enough hips/elbows are a one off score. It absolutely doesn't cost the same to raise a litter of puppies and a litter of kittens and any reputable breeder of dogs will only breed their dog once a year. The cost of keeping a large breed dog inbetween litters is immense. This doesn't apply to me as my girls are pet first and foremost and it wouldn't matter to me if they never had any more pups. I do think £800 is high my pups go for nearly half of that cost!! and like I said previously how can you charge more money for some kittens out of the same litter???? no matter what the sex, colour or quality they have cost the same to raise - have they not??

belladiablo

15-07-2005, 09:31 PM

Hi PK,

I do see what you mean with breeding from dogs, and larger dogs needing more food. Your prices for your puppies though, are your own, and I am sure in line with what other breeders probably charge for that particular breed.

I do understand your point, in that one stunning kitten in a litter would cost the same to raise, but not the same to produce. To produce these kittens takes time, effort and knowing who would produce what for a particular mating! I am sure, that when considering who you choose to stud your bitch to, you would expect to pay more to mate her to a grand champion, in the hope that this would produce good quality puppies, in the hope, that they would be a good standard for the breed. I myself, do not charge any extra for what I consider 'show quality'. I had to make the point though for the breeders that do, and would not undermine their work! This would not be a fair thing to do! As for breeding 'stock', I have been more than happy to swap with good breeding friends. This actually brings me in no money! Again though, I had to make the point for all breeders, not just myself!

I am quite certain though, that the breeders who breed the same breed of dog as yourself, who struggle taking them to shows, to perhaps achieve the dream of Crufts for example, would not appreciate the fact that you seem to think, that a 'show quality' puppy, should sell for any less than it is worth. I know that many dog breeders put in the time, effort and money to prove their dogs to be the perfect standard, and would charge more money for the puppies born from these. The same goes for horses, cows, even pigs as they all have their 'standards'. I would not begin to belittle any of these people for the work they have put in to their breeding!

To be honest PK, if you have the money to support your breeding programme, and never expect to make one penny, but to always support a loss, then fine, I have no problem with at all. That is your choice in a free society, and your fundamental right!

Be aware though, that many other breeders put time and effort, into buying the right breed standard for their programme, or paying for the top stud. The prices that I wrote earlier, are true and correct, I would like to point out that I don't charge a different price between show and pet, but would for breeding. The prices I put were from a range of breeders, not just myself, and I was trying to give a general impression for all Bengal breeders, not just myself! Once again, from my point of view, what I charge a customer is between myself and them, and no one else!

I hope this will clear any misunderstanding of this particular post!

Suexx

Fran

15-07-2005, 09:41 PM

Actually in my breed no more is charged to use a cruft's champion sire than any other. One of my girls sire is an international champion. In the dog world it cost no more to produce a champion pup than it does a pet pup. You have to have money to support a breeding programme as good breeders do not make any money. Visit [admin edit:link removed] and see for yourself the opinions on making money in dog breeding..... Pupppies in my breed by any breeder are sold for the same price whether show stock or not!!! so I would get your facts right before you post :-)

Fran

15-07-2005, 09:46 PM

I put a lot and time and effort into producing my pups. I sleep for at least three weeks on the settee beside them after they are born. I chose my sire carefully taking into account pedigree lines and faults within the lines and no expenses are spared on either mum or pups. I do not breed to make money nor do I expect to make any. My pleasure comes from seeing my new puppy owners faces when they choose their new puppy and I take pleasure in knowing I have done everything in my power to produce a healthy well balanced pup out of very good pedigree lines. I keep in touch with every single pup I have bred for life and would always take a pup /dog back if circumstances necessitated....

belladiablo

15-07-2005, 10:13 PM

Hi PK,
At no point did I attempt to imply that you had put no time and effort into your breeding, but not to cover your own costs at the very least seems a shame!
I had not wanted this post to turn into an argument, although you seem quite determined that this should be so! I really do not understand why?
I certainly hope you are not implying that cats are lesser creatures than your puppies, or that the cat breeders that are able to make a living from this wonderful yet terrifying job should not do so?
I pay the same for antibiotics, and the consultations that you do, and also pay the same for vet care. If any of my cats should need out of hours care, I pay over £80 before even walking in the door! I pay a high cost for my vaccines, as the breed I love will only just tolerate a dead vaccine, and the live has been known to kill them! I research all the deadly things that will kill a kitten, daily, yet still have so much more to learn! You commented before, that the vets you had dealt with, had never performed a c section on a cat, well how then does that explain all the breeders I have spoken to that have had this with at least one cat? You point out that your particular breed needs an eye test every year, well so do cat breeders with felv, fiv, and other numerous diseases that could kill your entire household, including fip, which could not only kill one cat but decimate your stock, but for which there is no defininitive test apart from autopsy, no cure and no vaccine! Fading kitten syndrome is another battle from which we suffer, and once again are left with no answers! Many breeds such as the British Shorthair can suffer with pkd, and this will cost a breeder to test for!

The reason I said anything at all in this post was not to upset cat or dog breeders, but to point out to customers, future or present, that breeding is hard work, and if you think any breeder is greedy, puppy or kitten then take into account the hard work and money they put into their work (sorry it is taking me ages to write this, best Big Brother ever!) Poor Vanessa!!!!

Suexxx

Fran

15-07-2005, 10:29 PM

I am just trying to point out that breeding should not be done to make money and it seems in the cat world that making money is imperative. This isn't so in the dog world. You will actually find in the dog world that the champion dogs stud fee is less than Joe Bloggs down the road! but you may have many miles to travel to use him. All I am trying to point out in all of this is pedigree cats seem very expensive at the side of pedigree dogs.......Breeding should not be about making money and if it is then you are doing it for the wrong reasons. It really costs no more money to produce a pup for Crufts than it does to produce a pup for any other reason and if it does then you are doing something wrong i.e placing more importance on your so called show stock :? You do not pay the same for antibiotics or consultation for cats as dog are notoriously dearer at the vets than cats are. And in the dog world we too have fading puppy syndrome but luckily I personally have not experienced this but as I know a lot of the reasons that contribute to this condition I do everything in my power to reduce the odds.

I just get very wound up by people that see breeding, no what animal as an income as it just isn't so. You breed for the love of the breed and for no other reason. Any good breeder breeds at a loss not a profit most of the time....

luggage16

15-07-2005, 10:32 PM

sorry to have caused a bit of a debate on here!!

Fran

15-07-2005, 10:50 PM

No problem Sam That is what forums are for!! I think that it should have been carried on in the debate section though. If I had some Bengals for sale you would most certainly be able to afford them from me but I don't unfortunetly :( I have some non pedigree kittens 1 week old if that helps???

Azz

15-07-2005, 11:42 PM

calm down guys!

Do you really want to get into a price debate!?

You will find that different people charge different prices for different reasons, and in the Bengal world that is different again.

Not sure what it is liek for other breeds, but a Bengal breeding queen will cost you at the minium £800, and some charge a lot more if they feel they have 'something special'. Why? because the Bengal cats when bred properly costs a lot of money, as most of the sought after charteristics and 'lines' have to be imported, and because it is a fairly new breed, new lines are having to be brought in quite regularly.

The breeder who bred Cheetah is certainly not rich from it - she feeds her cats meat that is fit for human consumption! I've seen her freezer full of the stuff and Im sure it costs a pretty penny. Her pens are immaculate and from what I have seen the cats are looked after more than the huumans! She often says, the humans can look after themselves the catss can't.

Anyway thats just my two bobs worth and I hope it shows there is more to it that just meets the eye. I hope we dont have any heated debates on catpages! :)

Fran

15-07-2005, 11:52 PM

Hi Azz :smt039

Surely you would prefer a debate re cats than a little old chat about the weather - after all this is a cat forum??? I think you have missed the point of the posts really...... I think this should have been in the debate section. My point is this breeder may have only joined to promote her kittens and make money . My point is you don't breed to make money however clean your premises! or whether you have imported or not! It is the fundamental principle to breeding that is important - not the money!!
PK :-)

luggage16

16-07-2005, 12:43 AM

pretty kitty, i would be very interested in your kittens but your quite a distance from me so no good im afraid! I must admit I agree with you on the profit side of things though, I know a few rat breeders (i know its not the same thing at all) and they definately breed at a loss - most breeders of most animal breed for the love of the animals and improvement of a line and not to make a profit from it. Though if all the other breeders charge the prices they do for bengal cats its not surprising that new breeders charge the same. Wish they didnt though as i know i'd make a good mummy for a little bengal if I could afford one!

Azz

16-07-2005, 12:48 AM

Hi PK :-)

Yes the fundamental reason for breeding should be to improve the breed, however my point about the clenliness /food / importing etc was that it's expensive, and some people may think it justified to charge those prices. At the end of the day, people have the choice to say no and ultimately that is what will dicate the price :)

If you guys want to continue this in the debates section thats fine by me PK :-) Just start a thread there if you like :)

Regarding people coming on here to 'advertise' I will be removing the Kittens Available section as like we have done at Dogweb, and wait untill our breeders directory is live before re-opening it (as all breeder who want to get listed in the directory will have to adhere to our breeder charter/code of ethics)

:)

x

belladiablo

16-07-2005, 11:15 AM

I think that is a little unfair, if all I had wanted to do was to promote my own kittens, I would have joined and then added my breeder listings! Then left again! Azz is right, breeding pedigree cats can be hard work and expensive, as is owning your own stud boy! I am sure that Azz paid a pretty penny for her lovely Bengals. Also, that it was in line with what other breeders charge!

I think that my main point however has got lost along the way, somehow, which was, that in general, people are used to paying prices for pedigree dogs, but somehow seem offended that you charge money for kittens! When a kitten customer telephones or emails, and asks the price of a kitten, I tell them, and they say, "oh no, didn't want a show kitten or anything just a pet!", and I have to tell them that is the pet price!

I would dearly love to able to breed for free, or pay for cats to be bred, and someday, I will make that happen, as my dream is to breed rare wild cats to help with their conservation in the wild!

With the Sokoke, I expect you will all be more than horrified, to learn that a kitten would cost £2500. I know I am putting my head above the parapet here and it is likely to be shot off, hey ho! Getting used to it now!

The thing with the Sokoke price however, and this took a lot of breeders input to reach, not just mine I hasten to add, was this..... girl kittens amongst founder breeders will be swapped for free. As the breed is so rare, the price should reflect that 'rarity', but also, that price is for all, breeding and pet, so that should a pet owner really want a girl, we would ask them that the girl maybe has one or two litters before being spayed to help with the breed numbers! I have to tell you, I have someone waiting for a Sokoke kitten, I cannot say who, as this is not fair, but someone richer than the chap who owns Harrods. This person, (and to be very honest, the thought of paying off my mortgage, by overcharging this person, who probably would not bat an eyelid, is tempting :? ) I could not do it! The price has been set, as much to protect the area the cats originate from, as much as anything else! So this person will pay the same as any other person!

It is also on my agenda, that once the Sokoke become popular in the UK, then my cattery will help put a child in Kenya through school!

The Sokoke Cat Club of Great Britain, which I have helped form, will also be holding raffles, and fund raising ideas to help these same children. One of our younger committee members came up with the idea of a 'shoebox' appeal, the idea being, the shoe box be filled with pencils, erasers, rulers, pens, notebooks, calculators etc...............

I do wish, before people are so hasty to judge a person, that they get the whole, rather than a part to concentrate on, and use that to judge them with!

As to kitten prices, I would suggest you do your research also, and I include some links for you;

http://www.glitterglam.co.uk/forsale.htm
http://www.bengal-cat.org.uk/kittenspage.htm#Are%20Bengals%20Expensive?
http://www.karsukasbengals.co.uk/bengal-kittens-for-sale.htm
http://www.nanabush.co.uk/kittens.htm
http://www.bengalcat.co.uk/pet/buying/index.htm

As you can see, most breeders do charge the same, and it is not up to me to do any differently, and undermine the hard work they have already done with the breed. The costs I put up, were not mine, just a good example of most breeders prices for the person enquiring! I did point out that I had some Bengal crosses, should the money be an issue, and am not a snob, as I do have pet moggies who do nothing but live a happy life!
I had an enquiry yesterday for a stud kitten, instead of rubbing my hands with glee, thinking nice bit of dosh! I wanted to know how and where the kitten would be housed until he had grown up into a stud, as I would not be happy with a kitten just being chucked outside, I wanted them to be certain, that they would have to sign a contract that he not be sold on from them entire, but would be spayed and in a pet home, along with many other welfare questions! Needless to say, I have not heard from this person since! If I were the type of person you seem determined to make me out to be, I would then have just said, give me the money, and he's yours!

bobbie3917

16-07-2005, 01:25 PM

hi PK i would agree with you and say pup are harder work and cost more to bring to 8 weeks, that would be if you kept the littens for only 8 weeks, remeber that kittens are not sold until they are 13/14 weeks old and had both sets of jabs. i was shocked to find out that a breeding queen was more then a pet to buy as in pups all are the same price but i can now see why this is done.

and iam not having a go but did you not say that you paid a pritty penni for your blue kitten although he is just a moggie and you got him at about 7 weeks with no jabs

Bellakatz

16-07-2005, 01:42 PM

Just a few little pointers to bear in mind.

We have been breeding for nearly seven years now. we bred British shorthair and Bengals at the start but moved into Bengals alone to dedicate all of our experience into the breed.

As far as making money is concerened, WE DONT, we have been within 3 days of bankruptcy twice now, this is due to the high cost of stock, feeding, vets fees, medication, vaccinations, cat litter, etc,etc,etc,etc.

I refuse to enter a debate with anyone regarding Bengal prices, except to add, we dont charge any more for a breeding girl or boy than we do for a show quality girl or boy.

Our pet babies are a lot cheaper but carry a contract to protect what we have worked hard for and spent a LOT of money buying.

All of our Bengals are our pets as much as our Breeding stock, we prefer all of our babies to go to pet homes, SO WHAT if we dont make any money out it, our aim is to forward the breed and give our babies the best homes they can have.

In recent months a lot of people have jumped on the bandwagon of buying pet bengals and breeding them to sell the babies on unregistered for a much lower price, THEIR aim is to make as much money as fast as possible NOT better the breed.

I didnt join this forum to advertise my babies, my kitten sales come from 99% word of mouth not advertising, we are a well established and respected breeder , raising very well adjusted babies not a walking breathing fund raiser.

We have paid all sorts of prices for our Bengals and come across all sorts of restrictions, the prices are high in our opinion to prevent the exploitation of the Bengal breed, if you have never owned or spent time with a Bengal then you are missing out on something special, the look of the wild, the temperment of a baby, and a inteligence higher than yours or OURS.

Fran

16-07-2005, 02:08 PM

Since Azz - the administrator has requested that this debate be moved to the debate section I think it unfair to continue with this thread. If you wish to debate this further then I think that is what you should do. I have said all I have to say about this and still stand by everything said by me so far. Just to reply to you Nat....I did pay a higher price for Clooney as grey Moggies are much rarer than other colours BUT it was absolutely no where near the price of the cheapest of these Bengals (he was actually nearer nine weeks old Nat). I do not agree with him being sold for more money just because he is grey and my mission at the minute is to address this problem :wink: Regarding my puppies. Mine all go having had their first jabs and second is paid for......
If you wish to debate further, please respect Azz's request and move the thread to the debate section....

Fran

16-07-2005, 02:18 PM

Thanks Azz :wink:

Azz

16-07-2005, 02:26 PM

lol u got here b4 me! :lol

This topic has been split and moved to debates.

But don't forget please be NICE and don't let things get personal, or else! :lol:

Mags

16-07-2005, 02:34 PM

The Boss has spoken!

belladiablo

16-07-2005, 02:39 PM

You have had your say PK, but in my opinion breeding moggie cats, is very different from pedigree cats!

With my first two litters, I had one cat with a paralysed bladder, who had to go to the vets daily, this treatment, and no as I had only had her a little while before her kittens came, cost me nearly £1000. The second litter the mum had mastitis, and had to have treatment for this! The cat who had suffered the paralysed bladder, I had spayed, and is now in a lovely pet home! She cost me £1200. I got no money for her!

While I have not needed a c section for my cats, EVERY other breeder I talk to has!

I also know, a couple of breeders who have had their kittens eaten by the queen! An unsettled queen will do this rather than raise a litter if they are stressed for ANY reason!

My Bengal crosses are easy peasy to wean, and usually take me half a day!

Bengals, can take weeks, and in the meantime, get ill from lack of food!

I also have to worm and de-flea, every month, in the warm season, it will cost me over £100 for this alone!

The difference in food and litter for the extra weeks you keep a kitten is amazing, the youngest you can vaccinate a kitten is 9 weeks, you then have to wait three weeks for the next, and then a good few days after that. If the kitten has a bad reaction to the vaccine, then it could take even longer for the kitten to be ready for a new home!

I now have a queen showing signs of pyo, luckily she is with an excellent breeder, who has many years experience, and will hopefully be able to save her life! Yes pyo can kill, which is why a Bengal queen should not be left for too long between calls! She may never have babies again though, and considering she lost all her first litter due to them arriving preemie! I struggled to hand rear them, having no handy foster mum, but lost them all in the first week! This will be yet another blow!

I feel it really unfair, that you are trying to judge on your experience with moggie cats, which in no way is the same as a pedigree!
I would not even dream of telling you how to raise your puppies, and what price to charge! If you breed at a loss, as I have already said, then that is your right!

Having not been able to pay the mortgage this month, I too make a loss! I would hope though, that soon I make enough money, to convert my garage into a lovely 'stud pad'. I would also like to not have to worry about the next unexpected vet bill, and maybe even afford to insure them properly!!!

I had to make the choice between the mortgage and a sick kitten, I wonder if you can guess what I did!!!

smudgley

16-07-2005, 03:20 PM

I have just read the whole of this thread with great interest & I can appreciate where everyone is coming from. I don't really want to get deeply involved in this debate, but having bred dogs & cats just wanted to say in my experience what the difference is.
Firstly I have bred many litters of cats and dogs - (my reasons for breeding most of them are different to most peoples on here, but it does not really matter why I am breeding them) - It is definately without doubt a lot, lot more work rearing puppies than kittens. They are so much more demanding & do need a lot more attention.

Please don't think I am siding with anyone here & I don't want to get into the whole"cost" issue (as I said I have puppies & kittens for different reasons than most) and also don't think that I am saying puppies are better creatures than cats. I love my cats/dogs the same - I just think puppies are by far more time consuming. :-)

bobbie3917

16-07-2005, 04:06 PM

Just to reply to you Nat....I did pay a higher price for Clooney as grey Moggies are much rarer than other colours BUT it was absolutely no where near the price of the cheapest of these Bengals (he was actually nearer nine weeks old Nat). I do not agree with him being sold for more money just because he is grey and my mission at the minute is to address this problem :wink: Regarding my puppies. Mine all go having had their first jabs and second is paid for......
If you wish to debate further, please respect Azz's request and move the thread to the debate section....

hi PK first off i was not having a go i hope i have not offended you if i have then sorry,
you say that yu paid a higher price for Clooney as greys/blues are rarer, well how can you do that but say other prices are high, i bet you paid more for him then his litter mates (if they where diffrent colours). you have also said that you would breed your 2 gerys together cos there are ppl out there looking for them, how is that diffrent to what breeders do?
Bengals first had to be imported that why they started off with a high price, the first breeders to sell there kittens sold them for a lot as they had to spend a lot to get started that is why the price is high
with other breeds its the same as with dogs, i am hoping to breed my Maine coons i have to put the same amount of work in to finding a stud as i did when i bred my Staff, they also need health tests like HC (that costs a lot)

belladiablo

16-07-2005, 04:22 PM

I hope you do really well with your maine coons! I really admire the breed, and think they are fab! :-D
The kittens should be sooo sweet and furry and cuddly, would love to see pics as soon as you have any!!!!!

Suexxx

Fran

16-07-2005, 04:26 PM

Hi Nat, You did not offend me at all...Regarding Clooney, I did pay more for him than his non grey littermates (Not an extortionate amount though)but I did not agree that it was correct. If I produced blue cats myself I would charge no more for them than any other colour that I had to sell as at the end of the day they would have cost me no more to produce than any of the other littermates if you get my drift. I do not have a problem with the breeding of these cats, just the ridiculous amounts of money they are sold for. If I bred my two blue cats, the difference between me and these breeders would be that I would charge no more for my blue kittens than I will for Maud's current litter - I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say :-D

bobbie3917

16-07-2005, 05:02 PM

hi PK i get what your saying as there is a big thing right now about blue staffies costing £800-£1000 where there brindle litter mates are £400 or less but what i am saying is that they cost more to start with. how can you say to a breeder that they have to spend over a £1000 for there queen but only sell there kittens for £200 or what every you think is the right price. its the same when it coes to bulldogs.

can i be cheeky and ask you how much you will be selling your new kittens for?

if i get kitten i will be selling mine for about £350 for pets and at first i will not be selling for showing or breeding until i have been in the breed for a little longer

hi belladiablo
1 of my girls is at stud now (she missed last time) and i cant wait just to see them little bolls of fur :D
and there will be lots of pic

Fran

16-07-2005, 05:11 PM

can i be cheeky and ask you how much you will be selling your new kittens for?

if i get kitten i will be selling mine for about £350 for pets and at first i will not be selling for showing or breeding until i have been in the breed for a little longer

To be honest Nat, I haven't really decided....maybe £40 or £50 ? What do you think?? I have seen moggies advertised free - £300 :shock: I would say £45 - £75 is a sort of average :?

bobbie3917

16-07-2005, 05:43 PM

yes i have seen moggies going for a lot
i would say £50-£75 as its not good to give them away. and over £50 post most ppl off.

Bellakatz

16-07-2005, 06:35 PM

At the end of the day NO ONE forces our kitten customers to pay our prices
:shock: :shock:

Fran

16-07-2005, 06:55 PM

Bellakatz

16-07-2005, 06:59 PM

At the end of the day NO ONE forces our kitten customers to pay our prices
:shock: :shock:

What a shame that only the higher economic classes can enjoy this lovely breed......how sad that the lower economic classes could only dream of owning one :roll:

You would be very SURPRISED,it isnt only the higher economic class that buy Bengals

The lower econimic class make better pet owners because they save hard for their pet Bengal

I also give a discount to anyone who takes more than one kitten

Bellakatz

16-07-2005, 07:05 PM

We would rather our babies go the the
, in your words "lower economic classes"

because they treat their baby as a very much loved and cherished member of the family.

The , again in your words , "higher economic classes",
tend to treat Bengals as a fashion accesory.

We make no division of class by their financial status, the home and family they are going to are far more important than who has a higher income.

Azz

16-07-2005, 07:45 PM

lol u do make me laugh PK :lol:

At the end of the day NO ONE forces our kitten customers to pay our prices
:shock: :shock:

What a shame that only the higher economic classes can enjoy this lovely breed......how sad that the lower economic classes could only dream of owning one :roll:

That could be said for all sorts of things. I guess at the end of the day everything has a 'value' and a price, and most of the time the price is dictated by consumer demand and willingness to pay (or competition).

I guess this topic is something we all will have to agree to disagree on, and just drop it because it's not going to resolve anything and isn't really going anywhere..

Now let's get back to some real cat talk :)

belladiablo

16-07-2005, 07:46 PM

I so hope your 'Coony', takes this time, babies would be lovely!!!!

pics, pics, pics pleeeeeeze, as soon as your kitties arrive!!!

Not that I am impatient or anything! Honest!!!

Azz

16-07-2005, 07:48 PM

I love Coons too - they are so HUGE! :)
I say yes to pix too please Nat

belladiablo

16-07-2005, 07:49 PM

Big do they get?

Are yours big Natalie?

belladiablo

16-07-2005, 07:50 PM

Sorry!

Did not mean how that sounded Natalie :oops:

I meant are your maine coons big!!!!

Bellakatz

16-07-2005, 07:51 PM

Sue ....coons are big cats

WE want piccys xxx

I hope your girl has taken Nat

bobbie3917

16-07-2005, 11:42 PM

:lol: @ belladiablo

MC are big i think the only breed bigger then them are NF. males can get really big (over 20lbs) but should never look fat
my kitten is now 7 months old she is about 10 lbs my older girl is about 18 lbs. they are very long in the body with great big tailes (they are know as the tail with the cat)

if she catched this time there will be lost of pic and please evey 1 keep there fingers crossed for a silver tabbie girl ;)

belladiablo

17-07-2005, 12:53 AM

That is so cool!

Lovely big cats!

I have everything crossed for you :D And certainly hope for lovely babies :D :D :D

Then you can share piccies!!!!! :-D :-D :-D Which everyone seems excited about!!!

shonedek

17-07-2005, 05:53 AM

well i have just read this and to say the least im surprised by some comments.THERE is no comparison cats v dogs.
Both have there expenses and are difficult!
As to cost of breeding and kitten price a lot depends on the breed as to what expenses are incurred and the difficulty rearing.
I breed Persians and they are all DNA tested for PKD,Luekemia,Clamida.Hearts are also tested and Pancreases .Do you think this is cheap! C sections are also very common in Persians although i have to say ive been very lucky.
Ive had pups to and they are as much work as kittens.
Just remember that puppies go when they are 8 weeks old where kittens dont go to a minium of 14 weeks and are fully vaccinated!

If its done properly it will cost and as to making money well there is no money.One comment i found very insulting was that its presumed our cats are bred more then once a year,well mine aint .

I dont know about Labs but as a show person of dogs and i have shown quite a few breeds in my time ,the price of a show quality pup will be higher then a pet quality well they are in the breeds i deal with and im sure there are lots the same.You also must be very lucky being able to pay for studs (champion v non champion) as i know that we have to pay through the nose to use a Champion dog.As i said at the begining it all depends on the breed.
However i dont understand anyone wanting to pay the £10000s they pay for some of these breeds.
If you dont like the price then the simple answer is dont buy !

sakuya

22-07-2005, 01:15 PM

Well I've also been surprised at some of the comments and don't see how anyone can even compare dog breeding to cat breeding anyway. I breed cats, my dad use to breed dogs and I fail to see any comparison. I personally do not charge any more for a show quality kitten, than I do a pet kitten because regardless of "type", ALL my kittens are raised the same way, with love and care, and the best quality foods/litter etc. that I can buy. Not once has anyone ever quibbled the cost of one of my kittens because they know that my babies (like many other breeders) are raised properly. And I do not think they are expensive when you consider we are monitoring our babies 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and what we charge is very little, particularly as a normal person wouldn't dream of working in any type of employment, putting in 24/7 hours and then accept being paid what we are being paid what we are in kitten prices. Flippin' heck, by the time I add up my vet bills, food, litter, toys, show entries, stud housing, extra electricity for heating the boy's houses, registration fees, travelling costs, phone calls, extra bleach/cleaning products etc. and there is more than I can't even remember. I think any breeder, who is a decent breeder, is normally running at a loss and whenever/if any profit is made, it all goes straight back into the cats. As a future Sokoke breeder myself, I don't have a problem with the set prices that breeders will be charging for kittens, because I am aware of the cost involved in starting a future breeding program for them in the first place. No one forces kitten buyers to buy our kittens, they either do or they don't.