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Elaine
15-12-2010, 11:00 PM
We all know that kittens are cute, All kittens, from the healthy to the sick are cute. We all know that the country is over populated by unwanted cats (not just cats but this is a cat forum). So why do we on Catsey continue to support and coo over the indiscriminately bred kittens? Why do we on Catsey continue to support this practice by buying these kittens rather than supporting the rescues?
Should Catsey not have something written into it's guidelines about such practices or the bragging of such practices?
Want to see some more cute kittens?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Diddydawn/Diddydawn001.jpg
All died from infection
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Diddydawn/Diddydawn046.jpg
Also died
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Diddydawn/lucas2.jpg
Died, FIV+
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Diddydawn/kitty3.png
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Diddydawn/kitty4.png
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Diddydawn/ktty1.png
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Diddydawn/kitty2.png
All dead due to disease
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Diddydawn/Todayspics107.jpg
My boy Mutley, also dead due to disease.
These cats either died or were pts due to indiscriminate breeding, so tell me please why do Catsey members support this?

MrsH
15-12-2010, 11:14 PM
Such sad photos Elaine, thank you for reminding us what thoughtless breeding can all too often lead to :(

We've been accused of implicitly supporting indiscriminate breeding on this forum before and I thought we'd seen the end of people posting cute pics of their "accidental" litters by now. Judging by recent events it's apparently still happening, still being boasted of and still being cooed over. :evil:

When will it end?

Moli
15-12-2010, 11:19 PM
Those poor little kittens, like both you Lainey and MrsH, so sick of people breeding because they wanted too.....Far too many in rescues waiting for homes....I have nursed a litter like the little ones above, and its heartbreaking....

dandysmom
15-12-2010, 11:23 PM
Thanks, Elaine. It's only too human to coo over cute kittens, I know I'm a guilty party here. You're 100% right, of course; I suppose the only justification is that we might educate the posters so they won't do it again ........ :(

Phoenix
15-12-2010, 11:36 PM
Too right Elaine, the only kittens I would even think about buying/adopting if I was to get a kitten would be from a rescue. I have felt that way even before I started volunteering.

Moli
15-12-2010, 11:41 PM
I have had my eyes open since I started fostering, until them did not realise the degree of the problem....

Velvet
16-12-2010, 03:46 AM
I have had my eyes open since I started fostering, until them did not realise the degree of the problem....

Until we actually got Tim i was totally unaware of the problems with cats & the horrendous amount born each year. I have since become involved with cat rescue, got a wee cat homed recently whose owner had had the cat years & moved house leaving the cat behind.

People taking on kittens promising to neuter & not & kittens having kittens. Its gross.

I agree with everyting said however whats done is done & as someone else has said we can try to help educate folk. A litter of kittens cute as they are will grow & no matter how careful you are to vet new owners you cant guarantee they will neuter that baby when old enough.

Elaine
16-12-2010, 08:01 AM
I agree with everyting said however whats done is done & as someone else has said we can try to help educate folk. A litter of kittens cute as they are will grow & no matter how careful you are to vet new owners you cant guarantee they will neuter that baby when old enough.

Over and over we have heard the arguments about "educating folk" and the attitude of "whats done is done" and nothing changes, indiscriminate breeders still get support and are still allowed to brag about their litters on this and on other forums. The information about neuter and spey is out there if only people were to put their selfish desires aside and see the problems they are contributing to but they dont and so the problem continues.

yola
16-12-2010, 12:06 PM
As you know Elaine, I'm one of the 'education' advocates. However, I'm realistic enough to appreciate that for everyone one individual you convert there are 100s; maybe 1000s who will continue to breed from their cats.

As far as we here are concerned, I think there should be a 'Catsey Charter' which people need to read and agree to in order to join. This charter can stipulate our policy on responsible breeding; any threads which then promote this activity can be removed or better stil, locked with a standard post reitterating our policy.

We will never eradicate the problem, the only thing is that over time, society may find it increasingly distasteful as a whole - however without some powerful government legislation and promotional campaigns this ain't going to happen any time soon that's why I feel it must come from within society rather than being imposed from outside/above.

As an example, look how long it's taking with the smoking message - people howl that their liberties are being revoked; imagine how they'd yell if controlled pet breeding were to be introduced.

Velvet
16-12-2010, 12:10 PM
Yes i totally agree with you, have seen it time & again with dogs & now with kittens.

Amber came into season a few weeks after we got her. Just suppposing someone else had got her, was letting her out, she'd have got pregnant without tgem being aware. The very thought of such a young kitten getting pregnant never mind having kittens is to my mind, horrific. When we got her, her coat was thick & dull, it had a "dusty" dull appearance, she was so
light in weight, she needed built up. Yet she could so easily have had kittens herself. The likelihood of her carrying to term was slight never mimd having healthy babies. When she was picked up straying she had a too tight collar & despite extensive advertising no one claimed her. Kittens are too easy to come by

So, whats the answer. Ive heard if one animal rescue who insists all kittens are neutered at 4 months. This in itself is controversal. Vets who say they wont neuter/spay until the kitten is 6 months,
what use is that when some kittens come into season much earlier. When we got Tim our vet told us to keep him in until he was six months, neutered & microchipped. We have since moved & vets we are with now were surprised i wanted him chipped (while being neutered). Yet so many kittens arent
even given vaccs to begin with.

We hope to keep ours as house cats although we realise there may come a time when they will want out but, as yet it hasnt come to that. It is even more important to us as Tim has an intolerance to vaccs. Next year the vet we have now is goimg to try his booster
split into two. I e been asked 'why bother" if hes a house cat but yiu cant 100% guarantee he wont gwt out at some time.

A sensible vet will advise clients like ours did to keep babies in until six months & neuter/spay - but so
many kittens dont even get their first
vaccs never mind a booster. He also has dietry problems.

Tims mum was feral & probably his father was too. A feral colony probably interbreeding as time wears on will probably produce kitts with weajer
immune systems

To help educate folk at source i think the only way forward is early neutering & to be honest never thought I would say that as i to always thought 6 months was the "right" age. I have been educated in that sense - others can be too.....

Unfortunately when the deed is done and the cat is near term there is little can be done except try & get the owner to neuter the mother ASAP once kitts weaned. Advise them to offer finnancial help to new owners to neuter/spay the kittens & why not, theyve been responsible for bringing new life into an already over populated feline world si they need to take that responsibility seriously & also offer to have 1st choice in taking the kitt back no matter what age should the new owner decide they can no longer provide for it.

Excuse all typos as im using one finger on the iPhone - lol! I'll have to go now as Tim has got hold of the toilet roll & doing an Andrex puppy act - flying round the house with it trailing behind him.....

Velvet
16-12-2010, 12:15 PM
As you know Elaine, I'm one of the 'education' advocates. However, I'm realistic enough to appreciate that for everyone one individual you convert there are 100s; maybe 1000s who will continue to breed from their cats.

As far as we here are concerned, I think there should be a 'Catsey Charter' which people need to read and agree to in order to join. This charter can stipulate our policy on responsible breeding; any threads which then promote this activity can be removed or better stil, locked with a standard post reitterating our policy.

We will never eradicate the problem, the only thing is that over time, society may find it increasingly distasteful as a
whole - however without some powerful government legislation and promotional campaigns this ain't going to happen any time soon that's why I feel it must come from within society rather than being imposed from outside/above.

As an example, look how long it's taking with the smoking message - people
howl that their liberties are being revoked; imagine how they'd yell if controlled pet breeding were to be introduced.

Excellent post!

Velvet.Tears
16-12-2010, 01:14 PM
Question answered.

MrsH
16-12-2010, 01:35 PM
I may keep my litter until they are old enough to be neutured and have them neutered before going to a new home.

You mean you might be keeping them all until they're 6 months old??

outrageous!!!

You're having a laugh surely? Shame on you!

MrsH
16-12-2010, 01:42 PM
The dog-breed specific forum I belong to doesn't allow any discussion of litters by breeders (professional or BYB) unless they follow very definite, specific rules (I don't know what they are as I'm not a breeder)

Also no photos of litters are allowed at all in the standard forum sections with the exception of any pup the breeder is keeping, provided it's already over 8 weeks old.

I'm sure something could be worked out to stop Backyard breeders boasting about their thoughtlessness on this forum!

Velvet.Tears
16-12-2010, 02:17 PM
You mean you might be keeping them all until they're 6 months old??

outrageous!!!

You're having a laugh surely? Shame on you!


I should have added a question into that. I do apologise. And that question has been answered, even if it was in a bit of nasty way.

borderdawn
16-12-2010, 05:18 PM
I should have added a question into that. I do apologise. And that question has been answered, even if it was in a bit of nasty way.

Im sorry to say this but you are a perfect example of why we have so many Cats needing homes, absolutely disgraceful. In all honesty, if I knew where you lived, Id do something about removing them from you as I feel you are an unsuitable owner, especially for so many animals.:evil:

Velvet.Tears
16-12-2010, 05:30 PM
You obviously don't know how well i look after them then do you. Clearly you don't know me at all because if you did you wouldn't say that. And as a matter of fact i'm offended.

alexgirl73
16-12-2010, 05:49 PM
Before this debate gets too heated, let's take a moment to think guys. Yes, there are far too many people who breed their cats, and do so without thought, which angers us all. However, going full guns against someone for doing so usually doesn't work, it just p's them off and they then depart the forum none the wiser. Is it not better to educate in a calm, controlled manner? After all, the average man on the street has no idea about the number of cats in rescue, or the number PTS each year due to infection and disease.

I fully agree with having something in a Catsey Charter to state that we are a pro rescue, anti breeding forum. But if someone finds us with a cat already pregnant, then yes it may be a case of shutting the stable door etc, but if it prevents another litter in the future, then surely it is better for us as a forum to try and show someone the error of their ways in a calm way than sending them off in a strop knowing no better :)

Velvet.Tears
16-12-2010, 06:03 PM
An unsuitable owner is someone who does not provide care (feeding etc), vet treatment when needed, appaling conditions as to which an animal lives.

MrsH
16-12-2010, 06:04 PM
I see where you're coming from Alexgirl but this breeder already has 7 cats, lives on the top floor of a block of flats, has bred from one of her cats because she said she wanted to, and now states that she may keep the litter until they've been neutered. Frankly I'd like to see some evidence that she is aware that she has made a huge mistake and that her actions are not in the animals' best interests. This isn't a case of a cat escaping from the house and accidentally getting pregnant (although that shouldn't happen either)

Elaine
16-12-2010, 06:06 PM
I agree with what Yola has said about a catsey charter, wasnt there something in the rules a while back that was supposed to stop people bragging about indiscriminate breeding, hence the breeders forum part. It was once written that no kitten pics were to be posted unless rescue related or something, I'm sure I remember something like that anyway.
I'm not against the "educating folk" thing but it takes too bloody long and many of these people are grown adults who should be researching the pros and cons of breeding before letting their own selfish wants get in the way.
I was also quite angry at the way many catsey members support rescue and indeed know only too well of all the disaster stories but will continue to coo over these poor raped cats and their offspring. We need to be consistant while trying to educate surely. I am therefore not having a pop at any one particular person but many.

Velvet
16-12-2010, 06:08 PM
Before this debate gets too heated, let's take a moment to think guys. Yes, there are far too many people who breed their cats, and do so without thought, which angers us all. However, going full guns against someone for doing so usually doesn't work, it just p's them off and they then depart the forum none the wiser. Is it not better to educate in a calm, controlled manner? After all, the average man on the street has no idea about the number of cats in rescue, or the number PTS each year due to infection and disease.

I fully agree with having something in a Catsey Charter to state that we are a pro rescue, anti breeding forum. But if someone finds us with a cat already pregnant, then yes it may be a case of shutting the stable door etc, but if it
prevents another litter in the future, then surely it is better for us as a forum to try and show someone the error of their ways in a calm way than sending them off in a strop knowing no better :)

Yes, I think you are right. I have friends involved in cat rescue as i am in dogs & it wasnt until i got my own cats & came in a cat forum i realised the extent of the problems that exist.

People need to learn & who better to teach than those with experience

Elaine
16-12-2010, 06:10 PM
Question answered.

What was the question and where was it answered?

MrsH
16-12-2010, 06:13 PM
There was no question asked Elaine, I quoted #12 completely in my reply at #13

#12 was then edited

Elaine
16-12-2010, 06:23 PM
An unsuitable owner is someone who does not provide care (feeding etc), vet treatment when needed, appaling conditions as to which an animal lives.

And also one who indiscriminately breeds and adds to an already huge problem of overpopulation imo

I see where you're coming from Alexgirl but this breeder already has 7 cats, lives on the top floor of a block of flats, has bred from one of her cats because she said she wanted to, and now states that she may keep the litter until they've been neutered. Frankly I'd like to see some evidence that she is aware that she has made a huge mistake and that her actions are not in the animals' best interests. This isn't a case of a cat escaping from the house and accidentally getting pregnant (although that shouldn't happen either)

I would agree.

There was no question asked Elaine, I quoted #12 completely in my reply at #13

#12 was then edited

That explaines my confusion then. xxx

Velvet.Tears
16-12-2010, 06:25 PM
I read somewhere kittens can be speyed/neutered at 12 weeks... Surely that can't be right can it?

alexgirl73
16-12-2010, 06:27 PM
yes they can, and many vets do this at these ages, but you should check with your own vet, and have it done AS SOON as he says it can be.

MrsH
16-12-2010, 06:27 PM
I read somewhere kittens can be speyed/neutered at 12 weeks... Surely that can't be right can it?

I would ask your vet about this when you see him/her about spaying the mum.

Elaine
16-12-2010, 06:27 PM
I read somewhere kittens can be speyed/neutered at 12 weeks... Surely that can't be right can it?


Why are you posting that here in the debates section? If you are not contributing to the current debate then p0lease start a new thread with your questions.

Kazz
16-12-2010, 09:19 PM
Why are you posting that here in the debates section? If you are not contributing to the current debate then p0lease start a new thread with your questions.

No need to jump. Surely a debate like this should have questions like that asked and answered. How will people learn if not form asking?

Not sure about a charter. I have done a little with CP and a local lady who catches neuters/spays and then release ferals. But I am not sure I would want to sign up to an "interent" forum charter. What use would it be would it top people having litter no but it might turn them "against asking for help advice" I am not sure. I like the idea Mrs H's post 14, regarding policy of litters. But what about the time we have all spent cooing over Moli's, Smudgley's Alex's, and yes even my rescue kittens/litters would they be banned too?

If we become to draconian will we alienate those we hope to "enlighten"????

Elaine
16-12-2010, 09:34 PM
I jumped because the poster already has a thread about neutering where she could have asked that question.

The ruling should be not to allow publicising indiscriminately bred kitten which could be seen as advertising them. That is completely different from posting rescue kittens. The forum should not be used to brag or advertise kittens which have been bred for very selfish reasons.

Kazz
16-12-2010, 09:38 PM
I jumped because the poster already has a thread about neutering where she could have asked that question.

The ruling should be not to allow publicising indiscriminately bred kitten which could be seen as advertising them. That is completely different from posting rescue kittens. The forum should not be used to brag or advertise kittens which have been bred for very selfish reasons.

Are not all litters that have purposely being bred, been bred for selfish reason be they moggies/pedigree/mixture of both. I agree whole heartedly that people should be actively encouraged to have their cats spayed/netured however I do not think "pulpit preaching" makes people sit up and think in fact far from it. Good debate but let’s try not to have people backing away gracefully..................frightened to contribute for fear of a verbal lashing.

MrsH
16-12-2010, 09:47 PM
I do think that with rescue/feral litters we all tend to temper the cooing with regret and sadness that someone has been thoughtless enough to let these litters happen.

They are always beautiful kittens but noone expects us to say to their rescuers things like "Ooh, aren't you lucky being able to raise these beauties" our comments tend more to be on the lines of "At least they've got a chance now, poor little mites, their mother no more than a kitten herself...."etc.

It just seems to me that we can be thought of as condoning, tolerating or even welcoming backyard breeding by cooing over yet another careless litter.

Kazz
16-12-2010, 09:51 PM
I do think that with rescue/feral litters we all tend to temper the cooing with regret and sadness that someone has been thoughtless enough to let these litters happen.

They are always beautiful kittens but noone expects us to say to their rescuers things like "Ooh, aren't you lucky being able to raise these beauties" our comments tend more to be on the lines of "At least they've got a chance now, poor little mites, their mother no more than a kitten herself...."etc.

It just seems to me that we can be thought of as condoning, tolerating or even welcoming backyard breeding by cooing over yet another careless litter.

I agree..............thing is how do we change the perception of people who think as say my parents do "good for a cat/bitch" to have a litter. This is an old wife’s tale but of course one which is ingrained. Some of these people will care greatly for their cat and try their best to find homes for their kittens. Then of course there are the shall we call them "professional" backyard breeders who breed purely for money with no care of the mother cat or for the health of the kittens. It’s a hard call do we alienate all or welcome all and try to convert from the inside?
We go round in circles, but I think opening the debate is always a good thing.

Elaine
16-12-2010, 09:59 PM
It just seems to me that we can be thought of as condoning, tolerating or even welcoming backyard breeding by cooing over yet another careless litter.

That's it exactly, it has been said many times before but Catsey does condone indiscriminate breeding.
If people can go on being inconsistant with these things and encouraging foul breeding practices then surely I should be allowed to continue to "pulpit preach". I find it very hard to be clucking fluffy about the harsh reality that these people contribute to the feline over population and the stress it puts rescues under.

Moli
16-12-2010, 10:02 PM
Our branch of the CP is bursting at the seams, got a call about 4 kittens, the woman had bred her cat last year and sold them for £80 each..(moggies) but she could not sell these 4, would we take them!!!!:evil: :evil:

Elaine
16-12-2010, 10:03 PM
How exactly would your "convert" from the inside? See maybe my aproach does ailienate people but by the same token pandering to them allows them to think that what they have done is ok and only serves to encourage more.

Kazz
16-12-2010, 10:04 PM
Our branch of the CP is bursting at the seams, got a call about 4 kittens, the woman had bred her cat last year and sold them for £80 each..(moggies) but she could not sell these 4, would we take them!!!!:evil: :evil:

And there we go..............reality.................I don;t suppose she wants to donate the £80 per kitten from the last litter to the CP to help does she?

Elaine
16-12-2010, 10:04 PM
Our branch of the CP is bursting at the seams, got a call about 4 kittens, the woman had bred her cat last year and sold them for £80 each..(moggies) but she could not sell these 4, would we take them!!!!:evil: :evil:


That happens alot sadly. Rescues are only there to pick up the peices of the mess these people create. Or so it would seem.

trick
16-12-2010, 10:22 PM
I'm not sure that the people who brag about kittens really want to listen to any advice about over breeding as they clearly don't think they are the problem, sometimes tactful education isn't enough.
We had loads of sick kittens this year, Flu,FIV, FeLV, heart murmers, epilepsie but the worst was to chlamydia which was passed on from mother to kitten and any other they come into contact with, it was so bad in 3 kittens from seperate litters that their eyes eventualy burst and had to be euthanized. Cute

lynz85
16-12-2010, 10:36 PM
that is so sad :( before we could collect pip we had to wait on his mothers blood tests. i think she hadnt been neutered in her previous home and when they discovered she was pregnant gave her into CP. its all so sad, all these homeless animals and people are just adding to the population without a second thought

Moli
16-12-2010, 10:41 PM
This was my last litter of fosters...all full of flu, and bad sticky eyes...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/molidoodle/DSC04448.jpg

lynz85
16-12-2010, 10:43 PM
that is heartbraking, what happened to them?

Moli
16-12-2010, 10:45 PM
that is heartbraking, what happened to them?
They all recovered and went to good homes....:)

lynz85
16-12-2010, 10:48 PM
a happy ending for some :D

Phoenix
16-12-2010, 10:57 PM
Sadly it's not just kittens that are suffering due to ignorance :( I can think of several examples of adults from Caring for Cats who had to be PTS due to incurable sickness or terrible injuries which could have been prevented had people thought about what they were doing :(

Some examples of the slightly happier endings - there was a young tortie/white female who was run over but thanks to a passerby who stopped got into rescue and survived to see a new home (can't remember her name), Suzy (black female) whose owners wanted her PTS because they had got a new kitten and Suzy wasn't coping (she was perfectly healthy - all she needed was someone understanding to give her a home and defleaing/deworming) and sadly we had countless ferals who had to be PTS due to FIV/FELV who were really suffering :(

Velvet
17-12-2010, 01:15 AM
This was my last litter of fosters...all full of flu, and bad sticky eyes...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/molidoodle/DSC04448.jpg


Moli, you had a "cream" kitten like our Tim'! Was this a feral litter?

Elaine
17-12-2010, 08:11 AM
Ok, so can anyone educate me on how to educate people from within, without condoning the act or pulpit preaching?

borderdawn
17-12-2010, 09:28 AM
You obviously don't know how well i look after them then do you. Clearly you don't know me at all because if you did you wouldn't say that. And as a matter of fact i'm offended.

Id never want to know you thanks.

borderdawn
17-12-2010, 09:29 AM
An unsuitable owner is someone who does not provide care (feeding etc), vet treatment when needed, appaling conditions as to which an animal lives.

Or one that hoards animals, allows them to breed irresponsibly, keeps them in unsuitable accommodation etc..:roll:

Shelley123
17-12-2010, 08:14 PM
How exactly would your "convert" from the inside? See maybe my aproach does ailienate people but by the same token pandering to them allows them to think that what they have done is ok and only serves to encourage more.

I have been converted from the inside or should i say i have gained lots of information and learned from joining various forums.
I haven't bred a litter and my Cats have always been neutered. I have also been involved with rescue as a teen.
However before joining the forum i realy wouldn't have thought it was wrong to breed a litter. Maybe it sounds naive but i hadn't realy thought about BYB.
Years ago my beloved dalmation came from a BYB, friends of my O/H who bred their bitch. Although she was a brilliant dog i now know with hindsight that they would be classed as BYB.
Thanks to learning on another forum we were able to seek a responsible breeder.

Elaine
17-12-2010, 08:18 PM
I am honestly keen to know how we go about educating from within without condoning or pulpit preaching.
The thing is, you can only educate people if they want to learn. Many who join the forum have already gone ahead and mated their cats without seeking any knowledge at all. They then get offended that their actions have offended but fail to see or care that they have caused offence initially.

Shelley123
17-12-2010, 08:25 PM
I am honestly keen to know how we go about educating from within without condoning or pulpit preaching.
The thing is, you can only educate people if they want to learn. Many who join the forum have already gone ahead and mated their cats without seeking any knowledge at all. They then get offended that their actions have offended but fail to see or care that they have caused offence initially.

I don't know the answer to this Elaine.
I do think it is something that needs addressing, it's not the only forum where i have seen this happen.
Maybe a charter or something is a good idea so people can read through it before joining.
I must admit to feeling very upset when people are made to feel unwelcome but i can see both sides to.
I haven't been involved with rescue since my teens and so haven't seen cats PTS due to lack of homes.
I do feel very strongly that these forums are a great place to learn as well as have fun.

Elaine
17-12-2010, 09:04 PM
So should we collectively be asking Az for some sort of charter then? Would people be in agreement to that? For me when it comes to these issues, being told to ignore what you dont like is NOT an answer and it goes back to the adage "if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem". That's how I see it. Maybe Catsey could be a pioneer on this front.

Moli
17-12-2010, 09:30 PM
Moli, you had a "cream" kitten like our Tim'! Was this a feral litter?
They were from a colony of farm cats, but not in the least feral.....

This is Murphy one of the litter.....Kept him a bit longer as he had a very bad eye for a while...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/molidoodle/DSC04707.jpg

Velvet
17-12-2010, 09:41 PM
Would people actually read it though? There are forums (cant remember if catsey & dogsey are or not) where to join it has to be approved by an Administrator. At this point before approval maybe Admin could send out protocols etc & only if agreed to
Members could join. Then again you can only go on people's honesty, they could agree to anything - "just to join".

I think as far as.the OP is concerned she knows now (hopefully has did research) that on a rescue forum breeding is bad regarding the situation countless kittens & cats ending up in rescue, turned out to survive on their own once the novelty wears off or the numbers of ferals who struggle to survive. From that point of view then the forum & its
members have (hopefully) succeeded in changing that person's attitude.

Would a Poll be a good idea? Im a relatively new member so perhaps i am not in a position to make suggestions?

Elaine
17-12-2010, 09:51 PM
If the member just agree'd to the charter without reading or any other reason and proved to be an irresponsible cat owner by not adhereing to the guide set out them their membership should simply be revoked. That way existing responsible members would not have to keep coming to loggerheads over this time and time again.
With regards to the OP, I havent read anything to suggest that they have learned anything at all from any of this and has to this day not answered any questions that were asked, but has had support and question answered to them.

Velvet
17-12-2010, 09:56 PM
They were from a colony of farm cats, but not in the least feral.....

This is Murphy one of the litter.....Kept him a bit longer as he had a very bad eye for a while...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/molidoodle/DSC04707.jpg

Hes absolutely gorgeous. Tim was the first cream kitten the Rescue we got him from had ever had. Murphy obviously thrived very well under your expert care.

Velvet
17-12-2010, 10:20 PM
If the member just agree'd to the charter without reading or any other reason and proved to be an irresponsible cat owner by not adhereing to the guide set out them their membership should simply be revoked. That way existing responsible members would not have to keep coming to loggerheads over this time and time again.
With regards to the OP, I havent read anything to suggest that they have learned anything at all from any of this and has to this day not answered any questions that were asked, but has had support and question answered to them.

I do feel the OP has taken on board how members of the forum feel about irresponsible breeding. The fact she is thinking of getting the kittens neutered herself & asking questions from experienced members on when best to neuter mum shows, i feel, they are


beginning to doubt letting mum have kittens in the first place. If not that then the responsibility of so many lives now lies directly with them. These kittens are going to be ready for homes in Spring when so many others are going to be ready at same time. People can pick & choose & frankly from what I can see in the short time i have had cats, if you lose a kitten, just go out & get another one. Perhaps it might be an idea to encourage the OP to ask a Rescue to home these kittens obce old enough.?

As someone else suggested the OP should have their intact male cat neutered now before mum comes into season again. This little cat has had a very big litter for the first time & real damage could occur if the male got to her again so soon, but then i am only voicing what others here already know.

Elaine
17-12-2010, 10:37 PM
I think most of us here sing pretty much from the same hymn book so lets try to come to an amicable resolution, one that we can all agree on for the benefit of Catsey, it's members both present and future and ultimately one that shows that we promote responsible cat ownership.
We have these uprisings all too often and I know that I am one of the ones that gets on my high horse and I do so because I care and because I dont want to be viewed as part of the problem. I also dont want Catsey to be viewed as part of the problem but until we can agree on something that we can put forward to Az then nothing will change.

Kim
17-12-2010, 10:39 PM
Well done Elaine for starting this thread and I agree with everything you have said. (but you probably knew I would!!) When I saw the thread about that Velvet.tears's cats litter I was totally appalled and even more appalled that people were cooing over them!! :mad: Of course all kittens are gorgeous, but it is so very wrong to breed from them, I have seen the scale of unwanted cats and kittens and adding to that number is totally irresponsible. Why on earth wasn't the mum neutered and the dad castrated?? :twisted: Posting pictures of members rescue kittens are completely different of course. :)

I definitely think Catsey should have some sort of charter stating we are definitely against the indescriminate breeding of cats. :)

Elaine
17-12-2010, 10:57 PM
Maybe we could have something in the guidlines like....

We do not accept members who are commercial breeders or kitten traders.
We expect breeders to adhere to relevant breed society/club ethics and that all apropriate health checks performed.
We reserve the right to refuse or terminate the membership of anyone breeding found not to be acting in the best interests of their cat/s, this includes the indiscriminate breeding of moggies.

or

Breeding from your queen Before choosing a stud you should consider why you wish to mate your queen. Remember that you are planning a litter of kittens for your sake, not for hers; there may be birth complications and she may even need a caesarean section, so if you planned to have a litter of kittens for her sake, have her spayed instead.

Open to constructive critisism only or I'll cry;)
I dunno, just trying to get the ball rolling really I guess...............

farthing
17-12-2010, 11:04 PM
I haven't read the thread that seems to have finally triggered this one, but this is something that has bothered me for a long time. In honesty, if people really care about their animals ( on many fronts, not just breeding) it is very easy to get info if you have a computer- and you can also easily get lots of different points of views, so why do we still have people coming on here and asking questions about 'what to do next' after the event, or 'my animal is ill, but can't afford the vet, what should I do'.
Sadly I don't think these people will ever change, and I have no idea why they come on forums like this. Education is the way to go, but we have to accept some people have different views as to 'what is good for their animal' and that these people will never change.
In honesty I have pretty much given up, animals are now disposable or a source of money. We rehomed 2 kittens to a couple who had 2 youngsters previously, their kittens were loved dearly but they both died with Felv before they were a year- in fact the whole litter was dead before its first birthday!

Velvet
17-12-2010, 11:16 PM
What would we suggest we put on it

Elaine
17-12-2010, 11:18 PM
What would you suggest is put on it?

See post 62;)

Velvet
18-12-2010, 12:16 AM
Its just me but I think something should put in it to emphasise what a big responsibility it is bringing new life ie kittens into the world and their ultimate future. If you "breed" a litter of kittens it should be your responsibility to ensure that new owners are encouraged to get the kitten spayed/neutered - why should the responsibility just "stop" when the kittens are homed. If you have 3 females in the litter by the time they are 6/7 months they could [if like Amber they come into season early] produce another 12 - 15 kittens between them. Whilst the two male kittens that are not neutered can go around sire-ing [sp?] every female in their vicinity or beyond [and maybe get lost themselves] - give examples in the charter "if" it makes people think.

Take Amber - if her original owners had really wanted her back, I am sure they would have been able to do so as the area she was picked up straying isnt huge. She got lost at a time when kittens in rescue were bursting at the seams in the summer. It was probably easier to go out and get another kitten than make an effort to try and find her:evil:

I also think that when compiling a charter it might be a good idea to mention that all kittens/cats should be microchipped. You can get this done when the kitten/cat is being spayed/neutered:lol:

Think I have gone a bit off topic -Oops :)

Kobster
18-12-2010, 09:54 AM
Hmmm, I don't know why, but I assumed the Velvet Tears litter was from a rescued female(pregnant at time of rescue), as she said she didn't know how far along she was....didn't know she was purposely bred or wouldn't have cooed. :(

Elaine
18-12-2010, 10:04 AM
Hmmm, I don't know why, but I assumed the Velvet Tears litter was from a rescued female(pregnant at time of rescue), as she said she didn't know how far along she was....didn't know she was purposely bred or wouldn't have cooed. :(

No Kobster, she said that she "wanted" to breed a litter of kittens and that Gizmo, one of her unneutered males was the dad.

Elaine
18-12-2010, 10:08 AM
Velvet, what you say s right but it may get very very long winded to get into every avenue. I was thinking, but I may be wrong, that what we needed was a simple guide to state that we do NOT condone or support irresponsible breeding. Maybe at some point some one or several people could write an article/s about breeding that people could view, which would go into all the facts in more depth.

Velvet
18-12-2010, 11:14 AM
Velvet, what you say s right but it may get very very long winded to get into every avenue. I was thinking, but I may be wrong, that what we needed was a simple guide to state that we do NOT condone or support irresponsible breeding. Maybe at some point some one or several people could write an article/s about breeding that people could view, which would go into all the facts in more depth.

Yep youre right, i just get carried away on my soap box. :)

Must admit i thought OP only had two entire cats (though that was bad enough) - the female & the male, having one female & 3-4
entire males is not good. No wonder the poor cats litter was so big. OP mustnt realise kitts can have more than one dad - reason they didnt realise how far gone mum was.

Its not a good situation at all for the poor nursing cat.

Elaine
18-12-2010, 11:32 AM
Absolutely, which is why I get carried away on my high horse.;)

Velvet
18-12-2010, 12:41 PM
Maybe its just me, originally we had reserved a ginger boy as a companion for Tim. However on the day we went to collect him, the rescue wouldn't release him as he wasn't well. Because of the distance involved - 21/2 - 3 hours drive they offered us a choice of any of the kittens/adults. The only other kitten there was Amber who was near Tim's age. We didnt want to take a younger kitten as Tim as always been a bit fiesty & with older cat it may have been too traumatic as we have dogs.

The first thing we did when we got home was to ring the vets to arrange Tim's neuter, which as it turned out, was just as well when Amber went into season early

How can any animal lover with a multi male cat household, the majority entire take on a female kitten/cat & not get the males neutered/female spayed at the earliest opportunity. It is very very sad.

Elaine
18-12-2010, 01:00 PM
Yes it is sad. Should we now close this debate and maybe start a new thread about how we would like Catsey as a whole to move forward? I am not naive enough to think that Catsey and any of it's members can resolve the issue of irresponsible cat ownership/breeding but how we can promote the forum as one that does not condone these acts.

MrsH
18-12-2010, 02:03 PM
Yes it is sad. Should we now close this debate and maybe start a new thread about how we would like Catsey as a whole to move forward? I am not naive enough to think that Catsey and any of it's members can resolve the issue of irresponsible cat ownership/breeding but how we can promote the forum as one that does not condone these acts.


Very nicely put Elaine. :smt058

Velvet
18-12-2010, 02:22 PM
Your'e probably right

Az
18-12-2010, 06:02 PM
I've lost count the number of times I've suggested that if people feel strongly about it they should consider getting together and writing an article (as a thread for now) for Catsey - and we will add a prominent link to it.

SB felt strongly enough about it to write one for Dogsey, Thinking about breeding? Think about this... (http://www.dogsey.com/dog-articles.php?t=12589) it is our most read article, ever! Just imagine how much good that has done - it doesn't take a scientist to work out it's done much more good than not having one. Whenever I notice a hint of someone considering 'breeding' in a thread on Dogsey, I always post a link to that thread - and many others do too.

Re a 'members charter' - I don't think this is a good idea. For one I am against censorship as we're not a draconian site, and two, most people will just skip it, or us and move on to the next forum. What good will that do? What's the point of having a voice if nobody can hear you - or is unwilling to listen to you. (And that goes for being overtly hostile too - it achieves little because people stop listening.)

We have to make a social change about why breeding willy nilly is wrong - and we're not going to do it by yelling from inside a closed cast iron cube.

dandysmom
18-12-2010, 08:57 PM
I like this idea! Elaine, want to have ago at it?

Elaine
18-12-2010, 10:49 PM
I could try but I really dont think I'd be any good at writting an article like that.

dandysmom
18-12-2010, 11:21 PM
I think you would, you've been very clear explaining the reasons not to breed. and the consequences when yet more kittens are born. Are you on Dogsey? Why not take a look at SB's thread .... get a few ideas for organizing it.

Kobster
19-12-2010, 08:37 AM
No Kobster, she said that she "wanted" to breed a litter of kittens and that Gizmo, one of her unneutered males was the dad.

Yes, but this was stated in a separate thread on a separate day. I know I can't be the only member who doesn't visit every day, read every thread, or remember what was said on every thread. From the way the thread with the kitten pics was worded, I had know way of knowing it wasn't a rescued female (I mean who intentially breeds and doesn't know how far along the female is???)

Point being, its isn't always that people are condoning it, they perhaps just don't know.

Kazz
19-12-2010, 12:16 PM
Yes, but this was stated in a separate thread on a separate day. I know I can't be the only member who doesn't visit every day, read every thread, or remember what was said on every thread. From the way the thread with the kitten pics was worded, I had know way of knowing it wasn't a rescued female (I mean who intentially breeds and doesn't know how far along the female is???)

Point being, its isn't always that people are condoning it, they perhaps just don't know.


I know what you mean I visit most days and I miss loads of info..............:roll:

Kazz
19-12-2010, 12:17 PM
I could try but I really dont think I'd be any good at writting an article like that.

Go on give it a go you wrote a beautiful and most informative article on health. You could try it out on us via PM before posting the finished article. But you can have editorial control. ;)

Velvet
19-12-2010, 01:16 PM
Yes, but this was stated in a separate thread on a separate day. I know I can't be the only member who doesn't visit every day, read every thread, or remember what was said on every thread. From the way the thread with the kitten pics was worded, I had know way of knowing it wasn't a rescued female (I mean who intentially breeds and doesn't know how far along the female is???)

Point being, its isn't always that people are condoning it, they perhaps just don't know.

Think what may have happened is that the wee cat was caught by one of the other males at an earlier date which
the OP didnt know about. She saw or knew about the mating 10 days previously & took her dates from there. I cant help thinking how uncomfortable it must have been when heavily pregnant to be mated again. How could the vet not have known the cat was
much further on than 10 days? Did i misread the OP had taken the cat to the vet? If she was running with the other cats when in season which she must have been then the kittens could have had different sires.

How could you miss a female cat in season?

I miss loads too Rachel & i visit quite often:)

Phoenix
19-12-2010, 02:41 PM
Go on give it a go you wrote a beautiful and most informative article on health. You could try it out on us via PM before posting the finished article. But you can have editorial control. ;)

I've made a start on it - posting it in a seperate thread (you can all add bits then we'll transfer it all onto the one post and ask the mods to put the article in the article section)

Edit: Posted here http://www.catsey.com/showthread.php?t=37894
;)

(It's kind of very long):oops: