How do you tell someone...

[Az]

they have done something wrong/irresponsible, without being rude or making it sound like you're having a go at them?

To be honest, people who excuse unpleasantness by calling it 'honest' 'I speak as I find' is not acceptable, and is actually quite cheap. The only time we should be having a go at someone is when reason has failed. Yes, I agree, people should learn more about welfare _before_ getting an animal - but if we're fair, how many of us learnt the hard way too? I know I did - I've learnt more about animal welfare _after_ getting my pets, and I think the same would be true for 99% of all pet owners too.

So in this thread feel free to 'practise' how you could word a reply to someone who has irresponsibly got their cat pregnant by failing to get it neutered or failing to keep it indoors when calling. Remember to keep in mind, that most people do not know of the plight of animals in welfare until they've become a cat (or dog) lover themselves.... which usually happens after falling in love with their cat/dog....

[dinahsmum]

"Well, I don't know if the thought has occurred to you,but I think you have done one of the most serious and potentially catastrophic things possible, other than having a child yourself.
You, and you alone, are now responsible, not only for your cat, who you love to bits, but now, if you go ahead with this preganancy, you, and you alone, are responsible for whatever happen to those kittens, and any kittens they have and any kittens they have.... so on and so on.
Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you will know the fate of all those kittens (1,2,4,6?) for the reminder of their lives? That you know that they will be neutered before they have the chance to add to the huge number of unwanted animals being cared for in shelters? That you know that their new owners will care for them all their lives; that their circumstances won't change, that the kitten/cat will not be passed to another, or thrown out when it scratches the baby, or abandoned when they move home, or ill-treated by the children, or ... well, there are dozens of horrible things which can happen to cats; I won't elaborate.
Are you prepared to keep the kittens until they are old enough to neuter (some vets will do it early, maybe 3-4 months)? imo, that's the only way you could 'make it up' to your cat and to cats in general.
I'm sure you didn't expect a lecture; I expect you are quite excited at the prospect of little fluff-balls.
I think you should go to your vet and see if ithere is time to spay your cat now, preventing the potential litter being born. She won't hate you - she's not busy kniting and dreaming of her family to come. If so - I'd go for it. Put it down to experience and be comforted that you have done the best you can. If it's too late, then you have a lot of decisions to make about what you will do with the little ones.
I've never had a litter, so can't advise on that. There will be previous threads here though, which you can search. Your vet probably has leaflets too.
I'm sorry this sounds a bit harsh - Catsey is actually a very supportive forum, and if you stay you will be welcomed and helped as best we can"

Something like that Az?

[Kazz]

I like that DM.......

Hello Azz nice to see you :) but can you please Azz tell me what has caused you to post this thread? has someone done something wrong?

[borderdawn]

Ill tell you, I did! Honesty is the best policy. Whats the point of telling somebody anything that should of been told to them before they arrived here? They only come here because of what they allowed and purposely in most cases, so its totally pointless IMO.

There is absolutely NO excuse for this type of thing, neutering is free, these folk are already on the net, they have the world at their fingertips, they just couldnt give a toss!

Dont tell them what they "want" to hear, tell them what they dont, the truth!!

Sorry Azz, but if you saw the crap left behind and the suffering that goes on because of this you would understand my anger.

[borderdawn]

Well, another thought, I expect you understand my anger, and I do think my mouth flies at times, but I am so sick of it. We have had an increase in the number of FIV Cats wanting boarding places, I have no problem with this, but the problem is they are ALL moggies and ALL "rescues" THIS is why posts like this enrage me, Ive yet to hear of a responsibly bred pedigree Cat with FIV, although I am sure there are some, all our calls are rescue Cats from rescue sources, why? Because those that bred them couldnt give a monkeys who the father is and more importantly, couldnt give a monkeys about their own Cat enough to ensure its safety.

[random]

Ill tell you, I did! Honesty is the best policy. Whats the point of telling somebody anything that should of been told to them before they arrived here? They only come here because of what they allowed and purposely in most cases, so its totally pointless IMO.

There is absolutely NO excuse for this type of thing, neutering is free, these folk are already on the net, they have the world at their fingertips, they just couldnt give a toss!

Dont tell them what they "want" to hear, tell them what they dont, the truth!!

Sorry Azz, but if you saw the crap left behind and the suffering that goes on because of this you would understand my anger.

I'd do it how I did it on that thread. But I don't think everyone should be the same or say the same. I think it would be equally destructive to said member if everyone were nicey nice or if everyone were like Dawn and Elaine about it. A case of good cop bad cop sometimes works wonders, but then Dawn's kick up the ar$e does make you sure never to be so bloody well stupid again! :-D If not for the people who 'had a go' at me when it happened here, I might not have been so careful with the kittens, in paying out of my own pocket to have all mine neutered when they were old enough. If everyone was nicey nicey about it I mean, I might not have even thought so much about them going on to produce kittens of their own.

But then I was a reg memeber already and expected it, if not I would have probably just walked away and never came back tbh.

[Kazz]

Okay obviously I have missed a post/thread something anyone care to enlighten me.....

[borderdawn]

The thing is Kel, even those that get all the support they need, and all of them do on here, regardless of what I say, never come back after they have what they want. Which brings me back to the original point. None of them "want" to be part of this site, they just want info to help them out of the hole they have dug for themselves.

Id NEVER ever stop people giving advice, but certainly cannot watch as the original posters "use" sites because of their own ignorance and bad ownership.

Im sorry if I sound harsh, but I cant help it.

[borderdawn]

http://www.catsey.com/showthread.php?t=33564

[Kazz]

http://www.catsey.com/showthread.php?t=33564

Ta Dawn.....................

[angieh]

I must just say that we shouldn't assume that a person is any more or less than they present themselves to be. Although information is here on the net for everyone to access if they want to, some people (fewer nowadays I admit) don't want to or can't and need supportive information and education.

I am very much of the mind that you shouldn't beat someone up before you know the facts of the matter. I think Az said above that that "most people do not know of the plight of animals in welfare until they've become a cat (or dog) lover themselves". People like me have thrown away leaflets that inform but are too distressing to look at or read.

[Phoenix]

I try to be "good cop" when I'm talking to someone on Catsey :D

I know where you're coming from Az, though sometimes people do need the proverbial "kick up the rear" to get their pet's neutered :evil: :roll: I've seen too many kittens coming in because people have either abandoned a pregnant cat or dumped the kittens :(

[angieh]

You see, now that is unforgiveable in my book - to abandon or dump animals ............................... but I don't suppose anyone would admit to doing that on this sort of forum.

[Phoenix]

You see, now that is unforgiveable in my book - to abandon or dump animals ............................... but I don't suppose anyone would admit to doing that on this sort of forum.

There's not many people who would admit to it to be honest, but I know two cases ikn the homing centre at the moment where the girls were dumped while pregnant and had to give birth in a shed or something :( :evil:

[HappyKatz]

Great thread Az :) I just wish people would spay & neuter their pets. It does wonders for them. It feels so great knowing that your pet is spayed or neutered. Doing that is just one less thing to worry about. For us & our pets! It is such a good thing to do :smt023

[Kim]

I know where you are coming from Az, but I think in this instance that Dawn is right. Sometimes pussyfooting around just does not get the message across. Hopefully this lady will know think twice about her actions.

[yola]

I was going to start a thread along a similar vein . . . but mine was going to ask whether more can be achieved by villifying and 'shouting' at a person or by calmly advising? After all, surely the objective is to get the person 'on side'? I'm going to digress a little from the question you pose Az - apologies for this.

My thinking is that the way to do get people to stop and think and assess their own actions is by calm, logical discussion; by holding up a mirror to their actions. This doesn't have to be sycophantic in any way at all, it can be clear, to the point and if necessary use case studies (in as much graphic detail as one sees fit to use) to illustrate an arguement.

Surely insulting someone, casting doubt on their affection for their pet/s etc etc is only going to upset, annoy or anger people who might genuinely NOT know about animal welfare. The result may end up being counter-productive inasmuch as they 'stick two fingers up' and carry on how they were before. Surely the way to ensure they understand and care enough in the future is by educating in a non-patronising and non-assumptive manner.

I don't doubt anyone's passion for the welfare of animals here - but putting my CP PR hat on; if I were to write press releases in a confrontational, abrupt and accusatory manner would they be published? If I insulted radio listeners during interviews would that endear them to CP and the cause I was trying to promote? No - and this would be completely counter-productive to what I was trying to achieve - to get people to listen to me and act on what I'm asking them to do.

And that is what we are doing by continuing to answer people who come here for advice (and I mean genuine people rather than trolls) - we're promoting an idea which is a bloody good one for all cats out there. We can be honest and plain speaking but this can be done in a way that wins over those who aren't as committed to the spay-neuter message.

It doesn't mean we are soft or compromising the way we feel about this important issue it simply means we are (ultimately) manipulating people to our way of thinking . . . and winning for the benefit of all those unwanted cats out there.

[EmmaG]

Well I think there is no wrong or right answer here. Some people will listen to the softly softly approach and others - possibly with more balls - will actually listen to a harsh telling off and it would actually make them realise the consequence of their actions.

Personally I applaud people like Dawn and Elaine, they have the guts to say what they think, sometimes perhaps it is harsh, but so is life. I think part of the reason why the world is like it is, is because people have got too politically correct and we pussy foot around people too much. We all don't like the harsh reality of some of our actions but sometimes it needs to be told like that.

Yola I can understand where you are coming from, but don't you think sometimes we need "shock" tactics to make people sit up and listen, I am sure we all turn off the TV when we see charity ads, personally I find them much the same and not very hard hitting, but perhaps that is just me.

[angieh]

As usual Yola puts everything I'd like to say in a calm and authoritative way. There are people who genuinely don't know and although I know ignorance is no defence, everyone has to start somewhere. We can't start from the standpoint that if people ask for help or information they get blasted - that does no good at all IMO. People will be making up stories next in order to find out stuff. If someone had said "I took in a little stray and found it to be pregnant, how should I care for her?" they get a different response entirely ........ that's great, but if people choose to tell the truth?

[yola]

I in no way at all disagree with the sentiments Elaine, Dawn, Kelly etc are putting across - I'm 100% with them on what they are saying - for me it's about HOW it's said. I am convinced that if someone feels they are being attacked verbally - even though they will probably know they deserve it - they will be less likely to respond positively. They will build up justification in their own minds for continuing in the way they have to date.

Some may make the necessary changes but ask yourselves this - if someone you didn't know starting telling you how to do things in what you perceive to be a blunt, rude and personally insulting manner how would you react? You'd walk away because their arguement would have no credibility in your eyes.

I'm no sandal-wearing liberal advocating a softly-softly approach and patting people on the head with a gentle telling off. I'm suggesting a clear, strong and if you like 'professional' message such as those communicated by CP and other charities which uses a blend of emotional blackmail, guilt, authority and mild/moderate chastisement.

We have an opportunity here which goes far beyond the 30 seconds a charity has to put across it's message on a TV ad. We have the chance to engage with these people directly and we will only get one opportunity to do so. If we scare them off/pi$$ them off we will ultimately have lost.

[dandysmom]

As usual, Yola has put it so well, not WHAT but HOW it is said. A person is coming here for help and information, and has no way of knowing she's pushed a very hot button! Our aim is to help the cat and inform the person in such a way that she won't log off thinking that this is an unfriendly site. Educate, not alienate.

[louise_81]

I was going to start a thread along a similar vein . . . but mine was going to ask whether more can be achieved by villifying and 'shouting' at a person or by calmly advising?

I have to say I think there is a fine line, You need someone to understand that animal husbandry of when they grew up is completely different to when they grew up. I think most people who do get animals have had them as a child and think that knowledge is enough.

I think that some people respond to the your cat/animal will be .... better behaved, less hormonal, where as others will respond to you are responsible for... the life this animal leads, the babies it produces and those babies from them. I also know on forums like this there are those who will not listen, dispite good advice, and those who blatently come on to goad and get a response

I also have to say that it was that thread and peoples responses that endeared me to the forum rather than chase me off!

[angieh]

I think Louise 81 and Random are exceptional and show wisdom and maturity beyond their years (some assumption going on here on behalf of Louise, sorry!). I hate conflict and will ignore/avoid at all costs. However, if I do get the chance to ask another cat owner off the forum whether they have had their cat neutered or will do when old enough, then I will ask and try a bit of information giving or gentle persuasion. Some peoples' first language is not animal welfare - but they can learn.

[louise_81]

Thank you, but personally I see it as common sense!

I have been involved with rabbit rescue for about a year now and I am beginning to see similar issues being raised on here with cats. i.e overbreeding, back street breeding (pets as cash cows regardless of illness, genetics), lack of care and attention regarding a animal's health well being and generally shirking responsibilities.

I live in an area with lots of cats, Many are un neutered and the local RSPCA does nothing, although the Manchester and Salford one are great and run regular neutering and microchipping schemes on a monthly basis, which are accessible to all i.e.Saturday afternoons, rather than the Wednesday Mornings that my local rescue runs theirs.

[Elaine]

I personally dont think I started off by being rude on that particular thread, the responses I got were rude and flippant which was red rag to a bull really.
I am who I am and I quite like who I am, so i wont be changing that for any one or any forum. I dont beleive that the education message is getting through other wise we wouldn't keep having these fall outs. I also dont like to be told to ignore these threads as to say nothing is only condoning what is happening.
I am perhaps not as well educated or as eloquent in how I voice my opinions as some others but that doesnt mean that my opinion is less valid.
It wouldnt do if we were all the same anyway now would it?
My very first cat was entire for the first year of his life, I thought it was cruel to neuter, and so yes i learned through my mistake but I was a very young teenager and we are going back almost 30 years.
If this forum and the internet had been around then and I had posted about him and got shot down, I would have probably taken in what was being said and held my hands up to my irresponsibility. The reason many of these people get so defensive in the first place is because they know that what they are doing is a selfish and irresponsible act.
As for being nicer, I dont think I could be. I dont tolerate fools in reality so why should I in the virtual world?

[angieh]

Can I ask Elaine what it was that made you learn and get your cat neutered?

[Phoenix]

Can I ask Elaine what it was that made you learn and get your cat neutered?

Beat me to it angieh :lol:

[borderdawn]

Can I ask Elaine what it was that made you learn and get your cat neutered?
Well as far back as 38yrs ago we had our Cats neutered, it was rescue "policy" then, so its been commonplace for decades. Even visiting a Vet for vaccs in a kitten, its most likely it will be mentioned, no "learning" required. IMO that is.:)

[Elaine]

Can I ask Elaine what it was that made you learn and get your cat neutered?

What made me learn was a very big lecture from a PDSA vet about being irresponsible and uncaring for cats as a whole.
As Dawn has said neutering policies have been in place for decades. I was 16 and it was a shock to be told in such an abrupt manner, but thats how I learned and it's always stuck with me. If he had been all namby pamby about it, I'd have probably thought "what a dick" but as he wasnt, the message really hit home.

[angieh]

Thanks Elaine.

Dawn - can I say that even our Elaine "learned" by going to that talk. We are not all born with the knowledge, so learning IS involved in one way or another.

I agree of course that neutering is the responsible thing to do in the cat's interests. I did not have cats until the mid 80's and had Merlin done when he was old enough. Smudge adopted me and was already preggers, but I had her done as soon as possible after she'd had her kits. So I know that the message has been around for a good long while.

[Elaine]

Thanks Elaine.

Dawn - can I say that even our Elaine "learned" by going to that talk. We are not all born with the knowledge, so learning IS involved in one way or another.

I agree of course that neutering is the responsible thing to do in the cat's interests. I did not have cats until the mid 80's and had Merlin done when he was old enough. Smudge adopted me and was already preggers, but I had her done as soon as possible after she'd had her kits. So I know that the message has been around for a good long while.


Angie, it was NOT a talk, the guy went berserk at me and I was 16 years old not 26 or 36. If he had of just "talked" I wouldnt have listened. After all I never listened through school and man was there alot of "talking" going on.

[angieh]

Sorry I misunderstood Elaine.

[dandysmom]

I don't remember when I learned about neutering being the responsible thing to do; I suspect it was when I was little as our cat was neutered....this was back in the 30's mind you.! I just knew when I got my first cat that he had to be neutered. And was, as were all subsequent cats.

[Moli]

Being perfectly honest, I knew about neutering and spay, and always had my boys done, but did not realise the extent of the problem with homeless cats & kttens till I joined Catsey and started to foster!!!

[borderdawn]

Thanks Elaine.

Dawn - can I say that even our Elaine "learned" by going to that talk. We are not all born with the knowledge, so learning IS involved in one way or another.

I agree of course that neutering is the responsible thing to do in the cat's interests. I did not have cats until the mid 80's and had Merlin done when he was old enough. Smudge adopted me and was already preggers, but I had her done as soon as possible after she'd had her kits. So I know that the message has been around for a good long while.
Well in my case it was common knowledge. All our cats were neutered, I cant remember ever not having them done when they were old enough. I do remember my mom telling me and my sister that a Tom cat stinks if you dont have him neutered! :-D

[laragreg]

I got my first cat from the cats protection when I was 6 and he was already neutered. Neutering was always a responsable thing to do when you have a pet thats how I was brought up and my kids who are 8,6 and 3 are being brought up to love, respect and understand animals.:)

I rescued a rabbit about 3 months ago first thing i did was vaccs and had her neutered (wasnt cheap) she is my only rabbit and I know rabbits shouldnt be on there own but I had to take her because I don't know what the previous owner was going to do to her:evil:

[louise_81]

As an aside, I couldn't believe how much my girlie rabbits cost to have spayed. £90+ (Sophie bite her stitched out, so that was another £30).

So long as your rabbit has company of you and your kids she should be fine. How about litter training her and having her as a house rabbit. I know quite a few who have rabbits and cats living harmoniously (Its one thing I looked into before getting a cat!)

[laragreg]

The rabbit (jessica) and fluffy get on well they both play in the garden but I don't think I could have the rabbit inside I know people do but I just don't think it would work for me:?

Jessica had stapples:shock: I couldn't belive it but the vet said that it would be better than stitches because they pull them out, she still managed to pull 2 out but the vet put some more in and didnt charge me he said it was all included in the £90 and not to worry.:)

[Phoenix]

The rabbit (jessica) and fluffy get on well they both play in the garden but I don't think I could have the rabbit inside I know people do but I just don't think it would work for me:?

Jessica had stapples:shock: I couldn't belive it but the vet said that it would be better than stitches because they pull them out, she still managed to pull 2 out but the vet put some more in and didnt charge me he said it was all included in the £90 and not to worry.:)

That was kind of him :D