Cardiomyopathy

[Elaine]

http://www.fabcats.org/owners/heart/cardiomyopathy.html

Since the sad loss of dear Abi, I have been reading as much as I can about the condition, as I do. The type of condition Abi suffered could well have been genetic as we are unaware of any viral infection that she may have had in the past.

[Elaine]

Is HCM genetic?
HCM in humans, in the majority of cases, is an inherited genetic disorder, with over 130 genetic mutations already identified.

It is now also believed that HCM in cats could also be genetic. Recently, genetic mutations have been identified in both the Maine Coon and Ragdoll breeds of cat, and there is ongoing work looking for further mutations in the Norwegian Forrest Cat and Sphinx. Within the Maine Coon breed, approximately one third of tested cats are positive for the mutation. However, not all Maine Coons with HCM are positive and this particular mutation has not been identified in any cats other that Maine Coons and their progeny. The mutation identified in the Ragdoll is located within the same gene as the Maine Coon mutation. However, this mutation is different to that identified in Maine Coons and to date, there is no information on the incidence of this mutation within the Ragdoll breed.

Genetic testing of affected cats can be useful in identifying which cats carry the mutation. Whilst a positive test result means that the cat is genetically predisposed to HCM, unfortunately a negative test only means that the cat does not have that one particular mutation. It does not mean that the cat being tested doesn’t have HCM.

Is there a screening scheme available to detect cardiomyopathy in cats?
The Feline Advisory Bureau, together with the Veterinary Cardiovascular Society (VCS) have set up a scheme to detect the presence or absence of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy(HCM). See below..

[dinahsmum]

I wondered if she got a 'silent infection' when Caspurr was ill. No symptoms, but the virus got into her bloodstream and lodged in the heart muscle? Dunno - I'm not a vet.
The research you quote is quite alarming Elaine - the breeding of pedigree cats does not appear to be helping their health and wellbeing in some cases - like dogs :( Maybe moggies are best?

[Elaine]

I guess it might be possibe Hilary, another question to ask the vet and find out.

[mattde]

This was a concern when I purchased my Maine coons, best to go to a good breeder that tests the stud and queen cat.

[Elaine]

This was a concern when I purchased my Maine coons, best to go to a good breeder that tests the stud and queen cat.

I agree but for those cats who are rehomed several times or the ones that come through rescue, very often come with no papers. This makes it difficult to find out if the parents had been screened or not.

[mattde]

I agree its difficult, hopefully responsible breeders should try to eradicate the problem from the start of the breeding process.

[Elaine]

I agree its difficult, hopefully responsible breeders should try to eradicate the problem from the start of the breeding process.

Hopefully but I doubt it, sadly there isnt adequate testing for this condition and if hobby breeders fail in thier moral obligation to inform owners or other breeders of suspicous deaths from the bloodline, then the problem is ongoing.

[borderdawn]

ALL responsible breeders will test for HCM in breeds of cats affected by it, its done by a cardio specialist and should be done yearly.

Sorry to hear about your Cat Elaine, as you say if she was a rescue you cant trace her breeders, as Im sure they would want to know, get theirs tested (should be anyway) and cease breeding from the line if anything crops up.

[Elaine]

I have located the breeder Dawn and I have emailed her. Her website shows, if my calculations are correct, that the father died suddenly last year and that one of her siblings was kept as a breeding queen, but I think from the guest book, she is being rehomed. The website also says that her breeding programe is being reduced due to work commitments. From what I can tell, other breeders or cat show people have bought cats from the same bloodline.
I just feel that even if the breeder didnt know or suspect anything up until last year when the stud became ill, surely the decent thing to have done would have been to inform people that there may be a problem.
Or is that just me because I hate injustice and would fess up to my failings and take responsibility.

[borderdawn]

I have located the breeder Dawn and I have emailed her. Her website shows, if my calculations are correct, that the father died suddenly last year and that one of her siblings was kept as a breeding queen, but I think from the guest book, she is being rehomed. The website also says that her breeding programe is being reduced due to work commitments. From what I can tell, other breeders or cat show people have bought cats from the same bloodline.
I just feel that even if the breeder didnt know or suspect anything up until last year when the stud became ill, surely the decent thing to have done would have been to inform people that there may be a problem.
Or is that just me because I hate injustice and would fess up to my failings and take responsibility.

Oh, so the breeder hasnt got back to you yet then?

if the sire died at 5 suddenly it is highly suspicious, thats of course if it was heart related, do you know? 5 is the "right" age for sudden acute Cardio, in dogs too, I lost a Dobe at 5 to it, he was fine, then his lungs filled with fluid, he had breathing difficulties and was dead in 6mths, but it can be literally suddenly, like dropping down too.

Sounds a bit fishy that they would now rehome a sibling (Abi's?) too, maybe the work commitment is a cover? Who knows, im not speculating but you are correct, when a cat dies suddenly like Abi, with a diagnosis like Cardio, the breeder must be informed and do the responsible thing, I only hope all her breeding stock WAS tested, and that the male didnt die of it.

[Elaine]

I havent heard anything back from the breeder as yet. It was confirmed to me via pm by Sarahd that the father who died was indeed Abi's and that he died of breathing difficulties and that he had collapsed, which from everything I have been reading, sounds very similar to the HCM symptoms that can be displayed.

[borderdawn]

I havent heard anything back from the breeder as yet. It was confirmed to me via pm by Sarahd that the father who died was indeed Abi's and that he died of breathing difficulties and that he had collapsed, which from everything I have been reading, sounds very similar to the HCM symptoms that can be displayed.
OMG!! :shock: Perhaps SarahD would pass it onto her, if she knows her? Sarah, this lady must be told HCM in cats is thought to have an inherited property, whilst its not clear how, it certainly appears to be passed on on somehow, sometimes. People who have bought kittens from her, by that Cat should be told.

[sarahd]

The breeder of Abi has been informed of all of this.
When the sire died her vet assured her it wasnt HCM.
Yes I did reply via PM and said what I believed to be the way the father died as that is what I was told.
I have to draw you back to the point that was made about cats without papers and rescue cats having problems tracing their parents.
Abi was sold by myself with the exact papers i got from her breeder and nothing was held back by me. So all her immediate parentage was on there. Just wanted to point this fact out
It seems there is a lot of finger pointing going on at the moment and a lot of insinuation not just on this forum which isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
I have done what i felt was right in informing Abi's breeder of the situation regarding Abi. It is not my place to be informing people of things regarding other breeders.
I dont think the breeder is using any excuse as a cover as she is not that kind of person and loves her cats dearly. His death was very hard for her to come to terms with and that is the reason why she decided to downsize initially.
If there was such a coverup and this was an ongoing problem then why would myself and a close friend both either purchase breeding queens or use the boy in question for stud??????????????
Steps are now being taken for other offspring from the stud boy but different parents to be tested for the HCM gene and then should there be a problem I am sure the breeder will then take things further.

[borderdawn]

The breeder of Abi has been informed of all of this.
When the sire died her vet assured her it wasnt HCM.
Yes I did reply via PM and said what I believed to be the way the father died as that is what I was told.
I have to draw you back to the point that was made about cats without papers and rescue cats having problems tracing their parents.
Abi was sold by myself with the exact papers i got from her breeder and nothing was held back by me. So all her immediate parentage was on there. Just wanted to point this fact out
It seems there is a lot of finger pointing going on at the moment and a lot of insinuation not just on this forum which isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
I have done what i felt was right in informing Abi's breeder of the situation regarding Abi. It is not my place to be informing people of things regarding other breeders.
I dont think the breeder is using any excuse as a cover as she is not that kind of person and loves her cats dearly. His death was very hard for her to come to terms with and that is the reason why she decided to downsize initially.
If there was such a coverup and this was an ongoing problem then why would myself and a close friend both either purchase breeding queens or use the boy in question for stud??????????????
Steps are now being taken for other offspring from the stud boy but different parents to be tested for the HCM gene and then should there be a problem I am sure the breeder will then take things further.

Hi Sarah.
I assume then that the stud Cat had a PM to determine his cause of death, obviously a Vet cannot just say what it is without difinitive proof. The other Cats that have been tested, was it done by a cardio Vet? Im sorry for the questions and I have no reason to doubt you, but Cardio is very close to my heart (excuse pun!) having lost a dog with it and am currently involved with Cardio scanning and drug trials for Dobermanns with it. Dobes have to be tested annually, an ECG, Doppler etc.. must be done by a specialist, a normal Vet cannot do it.

[sarahd]

A post mortem wasnt done as far as I am aware I really dont know. All I know is that the vet said he didnt believe his symptoms and illness was that of HCM
The cats that are being tested and awaiting their results at the moment have been tested via DNA
As I have said in my other posts on this forum this breeding line was nothing to do with me short of my wanting a loving home for a gorgeous cat that I was rehoming.
i am not trying to pass the book here but cannot be held responsible for people not being informed of things that effect a breeding programme that isnt my own

[borderdawn]

I dont think anyone is blaming you, why would they? If a PM wasnt done there is no way a vet can say what a Cat died from, just guesswork. Im not saying either way, but this thread caught my eye as I said I am interested in heart issues like this having had a dog with it.

I would hope that whatever the stud cat died of, with his daughter doing the same, young aswell, that the breeder has informed the breeders who have used her cat and tell them what she DOES know, not what a vet thinks "might" be the cause. By that I mean telling the symptoms of her Cats death, not that she knew he had HCM.

Dont take offence Sarah, none of this is your doing, even the breeders doing, just it seems things have been gone about in the wrong way.

[sarahd]

Hi Dawn
Sorry if i come across on the defensive but I feel that for not the first time on this forum i need to defend myself (not from you)
Yes I think i did give a wrong piece of information out to Elaine at one point and then found that to be incorrect for that i hold my hands up.
The rest of the information I gave via PM was information FACT that was retrieved from certain websites and NOT accusations. Some were suggestions of possible causes as shown again on factual websites and NOT my suggestions.
I agree this has been gone about in the wrong way.
There is a right way and a wrong way to sort things out as delicate as this and it is to speak to people in a private manner not via slanging matches on public forum boards.
Also can i just add the cat hadnt been used for outside stud as far as I know. He was only used by herself and once by me. So thankfully it is only the direct lines that come from her that are involved.
The reason why she didnt contact people beforehand i should imagine is that she didnt know there was a problem to inform people about. As far as she was concerned her beloved cat had just become suddenly ill and passed away. No definate diagnosis was given as far as I am aware other than that he didnt believe it was HCM
As i said its now in the breeders hands so to speak as to where she goes from here.
So now I've come on here and cleared things up from my part. I am now drawing a line under this whole matter for my involvement and i agree its now down to the breeder and whoever concerned to discuss this in a rational manner and find some kind of resolve. But not via public forums.
Hopefully this sad and devastating disease can be made more widely known about and breeders will make a point of testing for this disease more.
I think the testing for this gene in the ragdolls is still very new and currently there are not many breeders that do test for it but dont quote me on that

[borderdawn]

I think if the person that owned Abi is in touch with the breeder, then yes its now down to them to discuss their concerns. The last thing people need to do is to be shunned or told these conditions dont exist etc... which sadly does apply to some breeders, however gladly not in this case.

I know the lady that bred my Cats tests all hers for HCM and PKD as I believe it can affect them to, its the responsible thing to do.

I really only disagree with the fact a PM wasnt done on an apparently healthy, young cat, that had suddenly died. This to me is very suspect and of course if breathing difficulties are mentioned, the the first thing you think of is HCM. I can also understand how upsetting it must be to lose a Cat a just a couple years old, and when you get a diagnosis like HCM you feel you want and need to inform people, or at least those affected via siblings etc.. as you dont want anyone else to have to go through what you have just done.

When I lost my 9yr old Cat (found him dead in another garden) it would of driven me mad not to know what killed him, as to all intents and puposes, from looks alone, he was unharmed. What I couldnt see on him was the internal injuried caused by a huge impact.

Ive discussed genetic and inherited diseases before with dogs and cats, I personally feel that a dog or cat used for breeding should have ALL tests available for its breed in order for kittens/puppies to be registered, and that if an animal has been used for breeding and it dies unexpectedly a PM must be done to determine the cause. I view it as a positive way forward.

[Elaine]

Just to clear up the bit about the papers, it was the last owner of Abi who did not pass them on and says they are lost.
As for breathing difficulties in cats, from what i understand, if she had had a punctured lung, it would have shown up on xray, if she had had athsma or some respritory infection, she would have shown signs of wheezing, coughing etc but the vet said before performing xray etc that he felt it more likely to be HCM or some sort of sarcoma. She was later ruled to have died from HCM.
I felt it was important to highlight Abi's sad story and draw peoples attention to this condition and ofcourse we want answers as to why a young, healthy cat died so young and so suddenly. Knowing that her father died so young and so suddenly with out definative cause only hightened my reasons for doing so and does raise the question of a breeders moral obligation to inform owners of cats that he fathered what has happened so they may be aware or take the apropriate steps to make sure that all the fathered cats in question would be ok also.

[topazicatzbeth]

hi all, i just wanted to post this on behalf of the breeder, she does not go on forums and is not very computer literate. lol

the stud cat had shown no signs of illness until he suddenly collapsed and was pts a week later.

a pm was not advised by her vet as he said it wasnt a typical presentation for hcm and didnt believe it to be hereditary. perhaps this should have been done but at the time the breeder was distraught at losing him and went with her vets advise.

the breeder is rehoming some of her cats due to work commitments, initially she was going to stop breeding due to the upset of looseing the stud, but i persuaded her to just downsize. her younger cats i.e abis sister have been rehomes as people want to buy the younger ones apposed to the older ones.

Of ALL the other litters he sired noboddy has reported any other problems.

She IS going to inform all people that have offspring for breeding that there is a potential problem.

DNA tests went in the post today from my two that are sired from this boy so we will know more when they return.

we would like to say the only contact she has had from abis owners is an e amil from elaine which im afraid was not very nice and she will not be responding to it.

we would also like to point out that even IF there had been a known problem how could she have informed people when abi had been rehomed again without her knowledge.

we do not wish this to become a slanging match we just wanted to set the record straight that appropriate measures are now being taken now a potential problem has been highlighted.

[Elaine]

Thanx for all the contributions to this thread.
My intention was to highlight a serious condition which then led to the questions over moral obligations of vets, breeders and owners alike.
I can only urge any one who has a cat die so young and unexpectedly to do the right thing, have a post mortem done, contact the breeder and if you feel it necessary contact the governing bodies concerned.
I feel that there is no more to be gained by this thread at this time as i did not intend for this issue nor Abi's untimely death to be belittled by unecessary squabbling.

[charliebubs]

I'm so sorry to hear about the death of Abi......poor baby.

I do know that HCM is cropping up in raggies, but it tends to be the "Old English" types.

Before breeding Lily I had her DNA tested for HCM, just to be safe. Although, she is a tabby and therefore not an "Old English". Her results were clear and so were those of her kittens.

Personally, I will be testing every queen and every litter - just to be safe.

I would point out though, that HCM can appear at any time. Even though I am taking the best precautions with my furbabes, there is unfortunately no ideal fix. I could test and get a clear result, but the cat could ultimately still die of HCM. :(

Here's a link to the DNA testing facility........it's not very expensive, so there are no excuses!!

http://www.animalsdna.com/feline/hcm/

[Elaine]

Thankyou Charlie for the info.

[Elaine]

Just wondering how the tests went Beth?

Testing for HCM?
Genetic tests are available for particular mutations which are recognised in the Maine Coon and Ragdoll breeds. However, not all cats with HCM will demonstrate these mutations. Therefore, a negative gene test does not rule out HCM (even in one of the aforementioned breeds). At present, the most accurate method for diagnosing HCM is the use of cardiac ultrasound (echocardiography).
Is there a screening scheme available to detect cardiomyopathy in cats?
Yes, there is a Feline Advisory Bureau scheme available which is aimed at detecting the presence or absence of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM). It is run in association with the Veterinary Cardiovascular Society (VCS).