HPV Vaccine (Cervical Cancer)

[meep]

They have just introduced a new scheme whereby all female Scottish school students can get a vaccination for HPV, or Cervical Cancer.

I have my reservations about this. I am not against vaccinations completely, and do agree that some such as MMR are needed, and the recent trend in not getting vaccinations has led to a rise in some these illnesses which were almost eradicated before.

However, this one in particular worries me. Here are my reasons:

- It has come out of nowhere, all of a sudden. Not had much media coverage of it before, and suddenly, every second radio and tv advert is the pretty scottish girl telling us that all girls can get this vaccine.
- Unlike the MMR and other vaccines, this vaccine protects against something that could develop but isn't contagious. Whilst mumps are high risk due to the fact that they are highly contagious and one person skipping hte vaccine could lead to a large outbreak, cancer is a case-by-case basis.
- I think the statistic is something like 80 women in Scotland a year die of Cervical cancer. Whilst every life saved is worth it, and cancer is a heart-breaking disease for the person and their loved ones to suffer, that statistic isn't very high for a sudden, wide-spread vaccination.

Here are a few other, less theoretical and perhaps 'out-there' reasons that people may diasgree with:

- my mum's friend's daughter had this vaccine about a year ago, and died a week later. Now, I've gotten into debates with people about this, and I'm sure the government wouldn't make something widely available and almost compulsory for all girls aged 12 - 18 if there was a high risk of death but I have done research and found the following.
- Any women who has had this vaccine whilst pregant has given birth to a child with defects or abnormalities.
- There have been several cases in Scotland already where girls have died sometimes within an hour after receiving the vaccine.
- There are many cases where girls have reported unwanted side effects after the vaccine, ranging from head aches, slurred speech, confusing words when talking, dizziness, tiredness. Sometimes these side effects take up to a month to clear.
- The vaccine does not provide complete immunity to cervical cancer.

Now, worst case scenario and a bit far-fetched, but my biggest fear is this. Anyone seen 'Children of Men'? A movie in the future where the entire human race is infertile? And anyone remember Thalidomide?

This vaccine is relatively new. Whilst I am sure it is safe 99% to give to women now, we simply do not know what the knock-on effects will be 50 years down the line. What if all these women give birth to infertile children? Or they themselves become infertile? An entire generation of women.

I know that is worst-case scenario but it is not impossible.

I just have an uneasy feeling at the pit of my stomach about this vaccine. Cervical cancer isn't a huge killer; yes, it could save some lives and for every life it saves, it is worth it for that person, but to have a sudden, nationwide campaign for every girl to get it, when there have been reported deaths, birth abnormalities, and lots of unwanted side effects, and when it hasn't been tested over a very long period of time, I'm just not confident in it.

I do not mean to upset anyone who may have suffered the pains of cervical, or any other, cancer. I have personal experience of a loved one being afflicted and passing away because of it, and by no means wish to make it seem 'not worth' the vaccine. It's my concerns with the strategy behind a nationwide campaign of using it that worry me.

Any thoughts?

[Carole]

when there have been reported deaths, birth abnormalities, and lots of unwanted side effects,

Have you got any links to the reports? My daughter is in the age group due to receive the vaccination soon :(

[meep]

Carole, I'm sorry to worry you - and I really wouldn't worry too much. The stats I have are from web searches, and some from the BBC reports.

As I said, I don't think the government would make a nationwide vaccine campaign if there was any large risk of such things. The real, main concern was the birth abnormalities, but the majority of girls in Scotland receiving the vaccine won't be pregnant!

I will try and find the links for you again, but I didn't at all mean to worry you. If you do have any concerns, I would speak to the school or your GP? I believe the vaccine isn't compulsory, but is encouraged as it is being provided free on NHS and I think the price was around £250 normally, per vaccine, and they get two or three boosters?

I have been brought up by my mum who is a nurse but is largely sceptical of vaccines. I received the MMR when I was young and had a very severe allergic reaction; as a result, I've never received my booster. As such, I could contract measles or mumps but the doctor has advised that due to my severe reaction last time, it is best not to get the booster. For this reason, on a case by case basis, I avoid vaccines unless they're necessary.

When this vaccine becomes available to all women, I won't be opting for it. There is no history of cervical cancer of women in my family, I'm on the pill which reduces risk of cervical cancer anyway, and I do see it as slightly unnecessary.

But I wouldn't worry if your daughter gets it; please, I am so sorry I worried you! I didn't mean to scare-monger, I am more just voicing my concerns over the governments strategy behind this...

Again, I would say if you have real concerns, talk to you GP. I can't offer actual medical advice! Just my personal opinon, that I would not get this vaccine or suggest my younger sister doesn't get it (she has just left school, however, so won't be legibile to get it).

[Carole]

LOL It's ok I'm not worried :) but I think that every parent and child should have the opportunity to make an informed decision about this new vaccine.

Now I am off to spend a while looking for more info on this vaccine :)

[meep]

Some BBC articles I've found:

A debate on it's safety:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/02/2007_11_wed.shtml

General information on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6385931.stm

This part interests me:

However, even if a vaccine was in use, women would still need to be screened for cervical cancer.

This is because the vaccines do not prevent infection with all types of HPV, and it takes about 10 to 20 years after HPV infection for a cervical cancer to develop.


A BBC report in the Scottish schoolgirl campaign:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7590712.stm

A contradictory quote to the one I posted above:

Dr Clare McKenzie, a consultant gynaecologist at Ninewells Hospital in Dundee, said the injections would mean fewer women having to go through uncomfortable examinations for cervical abnormalities.

She told BBC Scotland: "This is a really exciting step to have discovered the cause of a cancer, to have identified what causes it and then to find a vaccine to eradicate it.


The quote above tells us girls must still get smear tests after the vaccine as it doesn't give 100% immunity.

And one final point:

Some fears have been expressed that the vaccination programme will cause even fewer to attend screening, while questions have also been asked about why so much money is being spent on saving the lives of less that 100 Scottish women a year.

[meep]

Good luck Carole! I would do exactly the same in your position: do a lot of research and make an informed decision. Let us know if you find anything interesting.

[yola]

Well I'm one who has been on the pointy end of this particular affliction and the treatment was truly horrible. I haven't read much into this as I have 2 boys so it's not really relevant. But it's concerning to read that there are such dreadful side effects. I can understand that there will be negative reactions, some of the severe, but surely three must be controls in place to prevent (for instance) pregnant girls/woman from receiving this vaccine?

I thought long and hard about the MMR, Dominik subsequently had it with absolutely no adverse effects. Which reminds me, I need to get a shot organized for Sebi!!

[meep]

Yola, I do agree that there must be some tests done to determine that the likelihood of their being adverse side-effects are low, and I would hope they would check to see if the girls were pregnant before getting it.

I do think the MMR link to autism was overblown in the media, and I personally think this is a relevant vaccine that should be given, as it prevents contagious, life-threatning illnesses. It's just me personally that couldn't get the booster.

I just worry that tests haven't been done to see effects 50 years down the line. I know Thalidomide was a wee while ago, but I'm sure they did lots of tests; but maybe just not all the right ones?

[alexgirl73]

I hadn't heard of any negativity surrounding this until I opened this post :( My eldest Raechel will be due to get this next year, and tbh until now I was more than happy for her to receive it, but now i think I'll have to do a lot of thinking about it.

[meep]

Alexgirl, again I didn't mean to worry you, but it is best to be informed of all facts and different opinons before making our own, informed decision.

What got me thinking about it and researching was when my mum's friend's daughter died from it. She says that she regrets her daughter getting it as she was perfectly healthy before and it was pre-empting something that may not have even developed. But then, if there is a history of cancer in family history, it is worth it.

It's a personal choice, I hope you come to a comfortable conclusion.

[meep]

Here is one of the more 'respectable' articles I read of adverse side effects:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/sep/07092004.html

I should note a distinction. This article is based on American and Canadian vaccines and reactions. They have been using Gardasil.

The one being made available here is Glaxo Smith Cline's Cervarix.

There could be a distinction between the two and the adverse reactions noted to the general 'HPV Vaccine' but I've yet to determine if the side-effects are linked to only Gardasil, or also Cervarix.

The article does highlight my own main concern:
One of the major complaints by physicians is that the HPV vaccination program has been implemented before adequate testing has been completed. Long-term effects of the vaccine remain unknown.

[Donna]

My daughter is 14 and I dont think I will let her have it.

[Kim]

I work in a High School and our year 8 pupils are having the vaccine next Friday. We have known about if for sometime, but parents have only recently been informed. Apparently the vaccine offers immunity for 80% of all cervical cancers; cervical cancer is one of the worst cancers, known as the silent killer. As the first-aider at school I have been involved in the organisation of the vaccine and I have never heard of the side-effects you mention, alhtough I don't disbelieve you! With regard to pregnancy, hopefullly year 8 girls won't be pregnant and I assume they would test older girls if there was a possibility of this. I am very keen for my 18 year old daughter to have the vaccine, infact she asked the doctor about it today as she had to go for a routine blood test.

I think, like any vaccine, it is up to parents and girls to make a personal, informed decision, but did you know that girls can overide their parents decision? I appreciate we don't know the long-term affects but any drug has to be rigourously tested before it can be publically used and Glaxosmithkline are about the biggest and best drug company there is. My personal view is if we have a vaccine available that can eradicate this evil killer then go for it!

[dandysmom]

I haven't followed this very closely here, as it doesn't affect me in any way, nor do I have children, But Gardasil is very controversial here; many questions about the effectiveness and possible side reactions. I too remember Thalidomide, which had been tested and considered safe ...
Results that don't show up in smaller human tests often appear when the drug is released into the general population and the number of people taking it are increased a hundredfold...
A difficult decision for anyone with a child .....

[Tink]

it's quite popular over here as far as i know. i contracted hpv (hence my cervical dysplasia that they are treating) and my doctor said around eighty percent of women (here) have it and have no idea because there are no symptoms in almost all cases.
on the other side it does not always prevent cancer..i suppose it would lower the chance though since such a large percentage of women have it with no idea (from what i've been told) and many live out their whole lives not knowing until they find out they are precancerous or have cancer.
i already have it so i'm not a candidate. i have no idea about the side effects. i'm guessing they are giving it to young girls before they become sexually active as it is extremely easy to be transmitted.

[meep]

I work in a High School and our year 8 pupils are having the vaccine next Friday. We have known about if for sometime, but parents have only recently been informed. Apparently the vaccine offers immunity for 80% of all cervical cancers; cervical cancer is one of the worst cancers, known as the silent killer. As the first-aider at school I have been involved in the organisation of the vaccine and I have never heard of the side-effects you mention, alhtough I don't disbelieve you! With regard to pregnancy, hopefullly year 8 girls won't be pregnant and I assume they would test older girls if there was a possibility of this. I am very keen for my 18 year old daughter to have the vaccine, infact she asked the doctor about it today as she had to go for a routine blood test.

I think, like any vaccine, it is up to parents and girls to make a personal, informed decision, but did you know that girls can overide their parents decision? I appreciate we don't know the long-term affects but any drug has to be rigourously tested before it can be publically used and Glaxosmithkline are about the biggest and best drug company there is. My personal view is if we have a vaccine available that can eradicate this evil killer then go for it!


Kim, it's really interesting to hear a different perspective on this - thanks. I realised after posting that my original post was slightly 'scare-mongering' which I didn't intend it to be, I was more pondering the implications behind the nationwide campaign. I am a closet conspiracy theorist :roll:

I think it does come down to personal choice. I know some people who are generally against vaccinatinos unless they're necessary, and I know others who maintain vaccinations are 100% what we need. Neither is right or wrong, it is personal choice.

Tink - your first hand experience of HPV is really interesting, I didn't realise that 80% of girls in the US have contracted the virus! Or that cervical cancer was such a wide-spread killer.

The one thing that still confuses me is that they say the vaccine will mean girls don't need to get examined (the smear test) but, as the vaccine only vaccinates against 80% of strains of the virus, they will still need to get smear tests to make sure the other 20% isn't there :?

I do think that it is a great breakthrough if it helps erradicate the HPV and reduce the number of cases of cervical cancer, but I still have a niggling doubt at the back of my mind, for reasons DM has highlight.

Also, a petty aside: in the adverts for it, the girls pronounce it "cer-vy-ih-cal" cancer, not "cer-vi-cal". They add an extra 'iy' syllabel. Surely the way cervical is spelt it IS 'cer-vi-cal' :roll: Just me being pernickety!

[Tink]

meep, that information you were given is incorrrect about no longer needing a pap smear. our advertisements here stress it does not prevent all kinds of cervical cancer and you must continue being regularly checked for it. i guess thee is misinformation out there which is unfortunate. everyone still must be out of sorts since it is new. i agree it just wouldn't make sense to be checked.
after all not all cervical cancer is caused by hpv.
it is so weird they said that!

[meep]

Tink, I completely agree that this misinformation is concerning, and that's one of the things that bugs me. In one of the above BBC reports, published a week or two ago, it contains in one article that exact contradiction. A doctor is hailing the vaccine and is quoted saying it will mean girls no longer need to suffer uncomfortable examinations, but then later in the article it states that the rate of girls getting pap / smear tests is already low and experts worry that getting the vaccine will make girls think they're immune when they're not, and will therefore mean even less girls will get tested regularly :?

This is one of the reasons I'm quite confused and unhappy with the whole thing.

[Tink]

Tink, I completely agree that this misinformation is concerning, and that's one of the things that bugs me. In one of the above BBC reports, published a week or two ago, it contains in one article that exact contradiction. A doctor is hailing the vaccine and is quoted saying it will mean girls no longer need to suffer uncomfortable examinations, but then later in the article it states that the rate of girls getting pap / smear tests is already low and experts worry that getting the vaccine will make girls think they're immune when they're not, and will therefore mean even less girls will get tested regularly :?

This is one of the reasons I'm quite confused and unhappy with the whole thing.

completely agree with you.

[Brigoose]

I have some quotes from PASSION magazine on the article

'contains sodium borate,which is used in ant powder and not meant for internal use, it also contains polysorbate 80, which has been linked to miscarriage and infertility. Polysorbate 80 is a key ingredient used in contraceptive vaccine, this is also an emulsifier and stabilizer, commonly used in ice-cream, milk products and cosmetics'

Also HPV infection only occurs in sexually active women.


Hummmm could this be the governments way of tackling teen pregnancy or something more sinister?

Sorry just saw the thread and had to post some real facts:shock:

[candyshandy]

As a person who has had HPV and consequently precancer cells I must say that I wish I'd have had it a vaccine.

There is a history of cervical cancer in my family and as a result I have been vigilant re testing etc. It is 12 years ago since I had the treatment but I still insist on an annual smear.

I was only 21 when it was found that I had contracted HPV and was told by the specialist that it is extremely common and that the only women who wouldn't be at risk of getting it are nuns!! I think he was trying to make me feel like I wasn't a slapper!

[Fran]

Hmmmm, not sure what to think about all this now. I have just given consent for my daughter to have this course of vaccines but I may change my mind as obviously there is more to this than meets the eye. I think I need to know more about it tbh. Obviously they tell you what they think they should and other details are ommitted from their information sheets. I shall contact the releveant dept. to discuss my concerns I think.

[Brigoose]

Don't want to scare anyone but 8 deaths have been linked to the vaccine in the USA, i'll find the story if anyone is interested

[meep]

Brigoose, that's really interesting, thanks for posting.

I've realised, since my first post, that the vaccine used in teh USA and the vaccine currently being used in the UK are two seperate vaccines, that have different ingredients and target different strains of the virus. Do you know if the facts you posted, Brigoose, are in relation to the UK vaccine or the US vaccine? The UK one was developed by an Australlian man so will also be used in Oz I'm guessing.

[furriefriend]

Hi I am new here. My daughter has ask about this her in england it is not automatically being offered to her age group16. I believ they are starting with younger kids. Interesting information you have fund and I am going to investigate more before we think about her having it, yes it is very new and although i mam sure testare done I am verysceptcal about alot of medical stuff. Incidently I dont believe cervical cancer is genetic/familal or anything it is carried if thats the correct term by sexual contac throught the hpv virus . Girls who never have sex everdo not develop cervical cancer. Boys also need educating on this regarding personal hygeine which can make all the difference. Sorry that a bit of a full on post for my first one!. Perhaps I had better stick to cats . Useful info meep thanks.

[candyshandy]

My Nan had a hysterectomy and eventually died of stomach cancer (secondary), Mum has had pre cancer cells, I've had pre cancer cells and my sister also developed HPV. I certainly believe that there is a genetic 'weakness' in my family.

[furriefriend]

Yes i agree with people having a predisposition to certain things if they are exposed to it, I just meant that it comes from an outside organism and if you arent exposed to it you wont get it. it isnt airborne for example like a cold. That said I am really not sure about my daughter having it and it is interesting that diferent countries are giving immunity from different strains. What is that supposed to mean, sounds a bit like the hib vaccine and kennel cough it only vaccinates you or the dog against some strains not all. They dont advertise that too strongly. It makes you believe once you have had a vaccine you are covered. Sorry I am getting on my soap box. Comes of having a sisiter who is practices homeopathy you get all sorts of other views then.

[meep]

Yes, that is one thing that has caught the mainstream media's attention; that they HPV vaccine only vaccinates against two strains of the virus (14 and 15 I think) but there are many other straings. The one used in America vaccinates against DIFFERENT strains. There are lots of things about this vaccine that are odd. Such as it only vaccinates for a certain amount of time, and if you contract the virus it can take up to 30 years for it to turn cancerous, by which time the vaccine will have worn off (if girls get it at 14), so the huge amount of government cash being injected into this seems a bit wasted. They also promoted on the back of "no more embarrasing cervical smears" but then said that girls WILL still need to get smear tests, as the vaccine isn't 100% as it doesn't prevent against all strains of the virus (going round in circles).

Candyshandy, I agree that everyone is different and everyone knows their own family history and whether the vaccine would be right for them. However, int he case of cervical cancer, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that cervical cancer generally only develops out of contracting the HPV virus which MUST be passed on from one individual to the next (and so it isn't related to family medical history); and this vaccine only protects against this virus.

Also, I believe some people may want to get the vaccine if, like yourself, they know there is a higher risk of cancer in the family medical cancer. I was just concerned that it was being offered free to every teenage girl in Scotland when not all of them may have a higher risk of contracting cancer etc.

The deaths linked to the vaccine in the US are what first alerted me to the dubious side of the vaccine, but since then I have discovered that the vaccine used in the US is different to the one used here in the UK. HOwever, the problem remains that it hasn't been around long enough for us to know the long term effects...

[candyshandy]

HPV is extremely common and my understanding (from the doctors) is that in some cases it can mutate into cancer whereas in others it will not.

Where I believe the genetics come in is that due to my family history (and my own personal past problems) I am more likely for HPV to mutate than not. This in fact happened.
Luckily it was caught early and I was heavily monitored. Unfortunately that meant tri monthly checks, heat treatment and finally a hospital stay and a cone biopsy. Then another 2 years of quarterly internal checks and then annual checks.
HPV in my case did not take long to mutate either - maximum 5 yrs.

Its clearly a personal choice but one I wish I could have had all those years ago.

[meep]

Thanks for filling in those facts candyshandy; that is really interesting. I'm so sorry to hear you had to go through all those procedures, but it is good to hear it was caught early and well monitored. As you said, it is personal choice, absolutely. And as I've said, that's why it worries that the campaign up here in Scotland makes it (even tho still a choice) make it a nationwide vaccination. The marketing on it was huge, it was everywhere where you went. I rarely trust anything that is over marketed. But that's just me ;)

[candyshandy]

I can see why you have concerns and if I hadn't had it myself or had the family history then I may feel differently about the vaccine.....

[Brigoose]

Meep,

Yes the first bit is about the vaccine in the UK , the second part is deaths in USA.