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Elaine
29-08-2008, 09:25 PM
This is a debate from another forum. basically about the whys and wherefores of bringing up a child vegan. I would suggest that binging up your kid vegetarian nowadays is perfectly viable, but bringing them up vegan is too much. For example if a kid gets invited to a birthday party how are they going to cope when they get there and can't eat the ice cream, jelly, cake, sandwiches or sweets because they all contain animal products?

dandysmom
29-08-2008, 09:31 PM
Elaine, could you clarify the difference between vegetarian and vegan? I'm uncertain.....

alexgirl73
29-08-2008, 09:46 PM
I quite agree with you Elaine! As you know Raechel is now vegetarian, and she has found it difficult to find sweets etc that are suitable for veggies, I can't imagine her going without ice cream and milk and cheese (a food staple for her now)

Elaine
29-08-2008, 09:47 PM
Vegetarians, or lacto-ovo-vegetarians, do not eat any meat products, but they eat dairy products and eggs. Vegetarians need to know whether a product contains gelatine or other meat-based products. Vegans do not consume any animal products.

farthing
29-08-2008, 10:01 PM
While I admire people who live buy their morals, I find it unfair to encourage children to be vegan. Veganism, no matter what anybody says isn't natural, humans cannot get enough B12 without suppliments on a vegan diet, this can lead to numerous health risks. Certainly if a parent wants to raise their child as vegan, I would hope they really do their research to ensure they do no long lasting damage to their child.

dandysmom
29-08-2008, 10:02 PM
Thanks. I think it would be very very difficult for a child to have to adhere to such strict rules. Growing up is hard enough, especially when being "different" from your friends is such a monumental thing. It's hard for diabetic children to pass on things they can't eat, but at least they can explain it's for medical reasons...and kids with various allergies (nuts, etc). That's a hard decision for parent to have to make, raising a vegan child, I personally would not want to do it to my child. But I suppose if the patent's moral/ethical sense was so strong they might be compelled to do so...

Interesting question, Elaine;look forward to other opinions.

Full disclosure: this written by an omnivore. I eat very little meat, but would not be without bacon, my Italian meatballs or the occasional burger or hot dog. I eat a lot of fish and chicken, and cannot contemplate life without cheese or eggs!

yola
29-08-2008, 11:48 PM
Reply *caveat - written after 1+ bottles of wine consumed . . . children have enough trouble confirming to basics . . . Sebi is dairy intollerant and boy do I have problems feeding him :shock: Don't inflict dietary restrictions on kids until they are old enough to decide for themselves. Please.

Kim
30-08-2008, 01:37 PM
Great thread Elaine and it is very difficult to answer. I do think it is perfectly acceptable to bring children up as vegetarians, but agree that it seems unfair in some ways to enforce veganism on them. As others have said it makes it difficult for Birthday parties, etc. However, I also understand why vegans are vegans as for example to produce enough milk for us to drink, cows are constantly pregnant, their calves are taken away from them and shot and cows don't live anywhere near their life expectancy due to being pregnant so often and overmilked. They also suffer with problems such as mastitis. As for egg production, I'm sure we all know the horrors of battery farms and that male chicks are killed as they are surplus to requirement, like male calves. Chicks are killed inhumanely and often put into a shredder alive. I only drink soya milk now & hope to have my own chickens soon.

I definitely don't agree that a vegan diet isn't natural, :? I know many vegans and they are usually very healthy! Of course you have to do yur research to make sure you get all the necessary vitamins & minerals, but by no means impossible. There are so many meat & dairy alternatives today that make it much easier. :)

farthing
30-08-2008, 02:40 PM
Sorry, I have to disagree that a vegan diet is natural, as an all meat diet is unnatural, we are naturally omnivores. As I said previously, if you cannot get the required vitamins, whatever from a diet without suppliments it can't be natural. What you do find is that many of the soya milks etc are supplied with the suppliments added, such as B12. I would agree that vegans, if they take suppliments are probably healthier than the general public, because they are more aware of general nutrition and don't eat the rubbish we normally do. :D
My concern as far as children are concerned, is whether any research has been done to see the affects of a vegan diet on them, and if they do recieve all the nutrients a growing body needs.
I agree about the ethics of veganism and do have qualms about taking milk, but I have my own chickens, who will live here until they die so don't really worry about having my own eggs, it is difficult to avoid eggs in the outside world though.

Elvisisboss
30-08-2008, 03:29 PM
hiya my entire family is vegan, i am not, although i do not eat red meat - my choice since i was 10, and now i cant eat chicken due to health, but i still eat fish, so still a meat eater.

you can get ANYTHING that the average person eats in a vegan version from sweets/ice cream/ice cream cones/milk/chocolate/butter/milk/cheese/'pretend' foods!!

ANYTHING!!!! my sister runs a vegan website and is part of Viva! essex so if anyone wants any info PM me :)

my sisters baby is being brought up vegan, i always thought hed 'miss out' but he has the SAME as other kids, jsut not with dairy/animals in it. passes health checks with flying colours and is 2years but they reckon he is about over a year ahead of his other 2 year olds in nursey and has been put 'up' to there age!

personally its up to her what she does, my kids wont be vegan/veggie i think this is a choice they should make when they are older!

you dont need supplements with the 'correct' diet either, 2 of my sisters are nutrionists aswell and everything you need coems from food anyway, peopel say red meat for 'iron' but spinach & broc do the same thing anyway!

veggies dont eat meat, still eat eggs/cheese/milk, soem go over board eating cheese thinking 'calcium!' but theres more calcium in veg than milk/cheese anyway!

vegans do not wat anything from a animal meat/cheese/milk/eggs, if they are very devoted they will stay away from leather aswell etc.

so its up to the person really, ones good for one person is not good for another.

i do find *most* veggies/vegans do try to 'force' the issue 'down your throat' so to speak, i was literally forced into being a veggie & vegan when i was younger but finally found the strength to say no! ill eat what i want to eat i do not moan about what you eat so leave me alone!

but as long as other just let people get along with their life im fine with it, do what you want!

there are now even 'veggie & vegan' dog/cat food, which i actually think is slight animal abuse in a way! these animals are NOT meant to be veggies! espically cats! my sister tried to make me buy some but i would never ever ever!! make my animals veggie or anyone else for that matter i beleive that everyone makes there own choices and no one should be forced into anything!

calismum
30-08-2008, 03:39 PM
difficult one - If you consider our dentition we were never meant to be vegan/vegatarian.

However, we do have lots of suppliments etc. available to us so I reckon it has to be personal choice - as long as a child gets the correct nutrition does it matter.

If you look at the diet some children have then perhaps a vegan one would be better!

CM

Elaine
30-08-2008, 09:05 PM
I have no problem with peoples choice to become vegan/vegitarian and yes I agree that many children have a really unhealthy diet anyway.
I also understand Kims points about the cows etc.
Elvisisboss, I would be interested in viewing whats on offer at the online shop, can you pm me the link please?
The point i am making is, should you be vegan and bring your child up as vegan, which you may well do perfectly well and make sure that they are getting all the nutrients etc, but if they are invited to birthday parties, the parent of the child having the party is not knowledgable on veganism or even if a vegan child is invited. How would the child cope under these circumstances? I guess i am trying to get at how a child is expected to cope outside of the family home?
My personal view is that children should be encouraged to think, discuss and make the choices about such things when they are old enough to do so and not be put into a situation whereby they feel different or maybe even left out of social events because of the parents views.

dandysmom
30-08-2008, 09:40 PM
I have no problem with peoples choice to become vegan/vegitarian and yes I agree that many children have a really unhealthy diet anyway.
I also understand Kims points about the cows etc.
Elvisisboss, I would be interested in viewing whats on offer at the online shop, can you pm me the link please?
The point i am making is, should you be vegan and bring your child up as vegan, which you may well do perfectly well and make sure that they are getting all the nutrients etc, but if they are invited to birthday parties, the parent of the child having the party is not knowledgable on veganism or even if a vegan child is invited. How would the child cope under these circumstances? I guess i am trying to get at how a child is expected to cope outside of the family home?
My personal view is that children should be encouraged to think, discuss and make the choices about such things when they are old enough to do so and not be put into a situation whereby they feel different or maybe even left out of social events because of the parents views.

I agree completely with that, Elaine.

Elvisisboss
31-08-2008, 08:25 AM
hiya my sister would cook or feed her child meat, my cousin however is veggie BUT gives her 2 boys meat, she said it is up to them when they get older.

but my sister is so driven by being vegan & changing the world into vegans that she would not do it!

the thing is if the child is invited to a birthday all you have to do is tell them to buy some swedish glace ice cream, OR you can buy cornettoes, magnums, ice lollys, all 'look' like the 'real thing' but arent, or take your own, so the child never feels left out, i mean say the child had a dairy allergy anyway? same thing would have to happen!

Ill pm you my sisters site & some shops! :)

i dont eat red meat (just decided not to when i was 10) always ate chicken but now due to health problems i cant :( i also cat eat eggs due to allergies and health......or wheat.....gluten.......sugar........! all for health & being tested for it reasons :(

i do on occasion have sugar though, and wheat but def not the rest or id be seriously ill *sniff*

Elaine
31-08-2008, 09:30 AM
hiya my sister would cook or feed her child meat, my cousin however is veggie BUT gives her 2 boys meat, she said it is up to them when they get older.

but my sister is so driven by being vegan & changing the world into vegans that she would not do it!

the thing is if the child is invited to a birthday all you have to do is tell them to buy some swedish glace ice cream, OR you can buy cornettoes, magnums, ice lollys, all 'look' like the 'real thing' but arent, or take your own, so the child never feels left out, i mean say the child had a dairy allergy anyway? same thing would have to happen!

Ill pm you my sisters site & some shops! :)

i dont eat red meat (just decided not to when i was 10) always ate chicken but now due to health problems i cant :( i also cat eat eggs due to allergies and health......or wheat.....gluten.......sugar........! all for health & being tested for it reasons :(

i do on occasion have sugar though, and wheat but def not the rest or id be seriously ill *sniff*

I get your point;)
Thanx for the links too.

Elvisisboss
31-08-2008, 10:46 AM
lol thats ok! i mean my kids (not my cats lol) will eat choci and ice cream, in moderation!

but i did feel sorry for him at first but then her baby seems to eat more than us with all the things he has that are dairy/animal free!

all looks well nice as well!

although some of it does taste like poop!

Kim
31-08-2008, 08:57 PM
Sorry, I have to disagree that a vegan diet is natural, as an all meat diet is unnatural, we are naturally omnivores. As I said previously, if you cannot get the required vitamins, whatever from a diet without suppliments it can't be natural. What you do find is that many of the soya milks etc are supplied with the suppliments added, such as B12. I would agree that vegans, if they take suppliments are probably healthier than the general public, because they are more aware of general nutrition and don't eat the rubbish we normally do. :D
My concern as far as children are concerned, is whether any research has been done to see the affects of a vegan diet on them, and if they do recieve all the nutrients a growing body needs.
I agree about the ethics of veganism and do have qualms about taking milk, but I have my own chickens, who will live here until they die so don't really worry about having my own eggs, it is difficult to avoid eggs in the outside world though.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, which I respect, but I would just like to respond to a couple of points you raise.

There is a lot of disagreement on what we're meant to eat "naturally", but what I do know is that our entire lives are far from "natural". I mean, how "natural" is it for us to use computers? If you were to strip life back to its "natural" form then we'd be living in caves again. For starters, besides the fact that due to our evolution we have now "progressed" to living in purpose built "caves" called "houses" with all the mod cons, we are no longer able to live the kind of "natural" lives a lot of meat eaters seem to aspire to. But also, if you look at our physical abilities, where do you find proof that we are natural omnivores? I'm sorry, but nature doesn't provide for a "natural option" of building physiques made for eating little bits of flesh that have been cooked, fried or baked - to my knowledge a cooker and a frying pan, or a knife to cut the meat to bite size pieces for that matter, are NOT natural implements. If we were naturally destined to eat meat we'd have strong jaws with long canines and sharp teeth in them. The teeth we have just cannot tear through skin with fur or feathers and rip pieces of flesh off a carcass.

And "if you can't get the required vitamins without supplements it can't be natural" .... well, produce, whether or not of plant origin, is so devoid of what used to be its natural nutrient content through mass produce, cold house storage and what have you, that I doubt that you can derive optimal nutrition from a 'meat and two veg' diet as it is. Most food production as it is is far from natural, what without green houses, use of pesticides, and the amount of antibiotics and growth hormones in animal feed. CJD for example is caused by animals getting fed ground up parts of other, diseased animals - please do tell me how natural it is for a cow to eat ground up sheep?!

"I would agree that vegans, if they take suppliments are probably healthier than the general public, because they are more aware of general nutrition and don't eat the rubbish we normally do."

This says it all really: if you're thinking that being vegan isn't "natural", but you reckon that vegans, who take care of their nutritional intake, are healthier than meat eaters who don't, then what are we discussing? What's the bottom line of this discussion: how you stay healthiest or whether we should continue eating rubbish because at some point it was natural to tear a raw bird apart! :?

I'm not sure if all vegans, who take supplements, are more healthy than the general public per se - the way I see it any diet can be healthy or unhealthy, it really is a case of variety, little sugar, fat and salt (which can all be vegan!), a decent amount of fibre and fresh produce. Many apples you buy at this time of year will have been in cold storage since May - I would not want to make any bets on the vitamin content of those. On the other hand, humans are a hardy species and seem to be able to survive on a diet that is nutritionally completely inadequate, combined with tobacco, alcohol, an unhealthy living environment, stress and no exercise to speak of.

As for raising children on a vegan diet, this link (http://www.vegansociety.com/people/lifestyle/families/parenting/vegan_children/) to the Vegan Society website might be useful. However, as far as I am aware children who have been raised on a vegan diet are all healthy happy children, and why shouldn't they be? There's also a good book for aspiring vegans called "Becoming Vegan", that gives the answers to many questions.

A cyber friend on another forum has been vegan for many years and very healthy, she knows of a lady who has kept her own bone cancer in check for 30(!!!) years, using alternative therapies (i.e. not covered by the NHS) and a virtually raw, vegan diet! And if that isn't enough she is STILL lifting weights and competing in her class at international level! This is her website (http://www.foodalive.org/). This same cyber friend feeds her dogs a vegan, homecooked diet, this diet, apart from the occasional treat, does not contain processed foods with additives or "by-products of meat and animal origin". According to her vet, dogs are not "obligate carnivores", which means that, although they are meat eaters, they do not need this to survive in good health. Her vet is completely aware of what she gives them and has commented that her dogs are better fed than some dogs he gets in his practice - or indeed humans! Another vet at the same practice was very sceptical to start with about their diet, but she was the one who got the lab's diagnosis back, saying that her dog has lymphoma, and has seen him over the months while he was receiving treatment. She has now admitted that more close contact with a 'vegan dog' has completely changed her mind! My dogs are fed a meat diet, so although I do not intend to make them vegan, I don't think dogs have to eat meat to be healthy, just as with humans.

Sorry about the novel, this is a subject (you may have guessed! ;) ) that I have strong feelings about. :)

farthing
31-08-2008, 09:22 PM
Kim, sorry to hit a nerve but my info comes from my experience with herbivorous animals (who also often suffer from B12 deficiency) and the vegan society website.
"Many herbivorous mammals, including cattle and sheep, absorb B12 produced by bacteria in their own digestive system. B12 is found to some extent in soil and plants. These observations have led some vegans to suggest that B12 was an issue requiring no special attention, or even an elaborate hoax. Others have proposed specific foods, including spirulina, nori, tempeh, and barley grass, as suitable non-animal sources of B12. Such claims have not stood the test of time. "
The biggest arguement for us being omnivores is our dentition.
Herbivores have permanantly growing back teeth and a diastema between the molars and canines, carnivores have large carnasial teeth and large canines, we fall between the 2, sugeesting we have a similar diet to the likes of pigs, who are naturally omnivores.
I have no issue with what people eat and admire those who stick by their morals, but I firmly believe that humans are onmivores, as I agree dogs are now.

I also agree that our lifestyle is no longer natural, but at no time did I say being vegan was wrong.

dandysmom
31-08-2008, 09:50 PM
Kim, sorry to hit a nerve but my info comes from my experience with herbivorous animals (who also often suffer from B12 deficiency) and the vegan society website.
"Many herbivorous mammals, including cattle and sheep, absorb B12 produced by bacteria in their own digestive system. B12 is found to some extent in soil and plants. These observations have led some vegans to suggest that B12 was an issue requiring no special attention, or even an elaborate hoax. Others have proposed specific foods, including spirulina, nori, tempeh, and barley grass, as suitable non-animal sources of B12. Such claims have not stood the test of time. "
The biggest arguement for us being omnivores is our dentition.
Herbivores have permanantly growing back teeth and a diastema between the molars and canines, carnivores have large carnasial teeth and large canines, we fall between the 2, sugeesting we have a similar diet to the likes of pigs, who are naturally omnivores.
I have no issue with what people eat and admire those who stick by their morals, but I firmly believe that humans are onmivores, as I agree dogs are now.

Well said, farthing!

Kim
01-09-2008, 07:41 PM
Farthing, I have no issues with those who eat meat either and I have been a meat eater for most of my life, even though am a vegetarian now, but the more I hear about animals and how they are treated before they become part of the food chain the more I aspire to become vegan. My dogs eat meat and although I admire those who feed their dogs a vegetarian diet, I don't think I could actually do it myself. Therefore I mainly agree with you, but I just don't agree that humans & dogs have to be omnivores, although historically we clearly were, I don't think this is necessary today, so we will just have to agree to disagree over that! ;) Anyway, I said a lot in my 'novel' post, so shall leave the subject now..... :)

farthing
01-09-2008, 08:41 PM
Kim, I agree humans don't have to be omnivores, all I meant was that our bodies are not adapted to live on plant matter alone- we cannot take in or produce enough B12 to be healthy through our lives if we are vegan- without suppliments, and I think if anybody is planning to turn vegan, it is something they should be aware of. I think it is great that people now have a choice and if folk want they can choose any lifestyle and live by their morals healthily.:D
I too am concerned about how animals are treated in the food chain, I don't think the whole human population will become vegetarian, never mind vegan and because of this think that better ways must be developed to at least give the animals who are farmed as good a life as possible and as humane a death as possible, with as little suffering happening in between.:D

Kim
01-09-2008, 10:03 PM
Kim, I agree humans don't have to be omnivores, all I meant was that our bodies are not adapted to live on plant matter alone- we cannot take in or produce enough B12 to be healthy through our lives if we are vegan- without suppliments, and I think if anybody is planning to turn vegan, it is something they should be aware of. I think it is great that people now have a choice and if folk want they can choose any lifestyle and live by their morals healthily.:D
I too am concerned about how animals are treated in the food chain, I don't think the whole human population will become vegetarian, never mind vegan and because of this think that better ways must be developed to at least give the animals who are farmed as good a life as possible and as humane a death as possible, with as little suffering happening in between.:D

I definitely agree with this!! :)

dandysmom
01-09-2008, 10:18 PM
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I definitely agree with this!! :)

I think everyone does, Kim! I know I do, omnivore that I am ......

Rosie
02-09-2008, 03:42 PM
I admire vegitarians and to some extent vegans because I wish I had the strength of character to say no to meat but I am weak:(

I hate the thought of animals being killed and especially the way so many animals are kept and I try to push it to the back of my mind. I have made an attempt to stop in stages i.e. I haven't eaten lamb for a year and hope to move onto other animals in time. I know many vegitarians who are healthy with their diet so it is not strictly necessary to eat dead animals (she says while thinking about having a steak for tea!!).

farthing
02-09-2008, 07:20 PM
Yes, but vegetarians eat eggs, whcih contain B12

angieh
02-09-2008, 10:30 PM
I was a veggie for about 4 years in the early '80's when it wasn't all that easy, especially if you went out for a meal - I was a veggie when I got married and my new OH (same as my old OH!) asked whether he was allowed to eat meat and I said yes, so long as you cook it. When we went on our first self-catering holiday, we even took nut roast and peanut pie with us!!! Later on however he was cunning and the first morning he decided to fry himself some bacon for breakfast I called down to him to ask if he would put a couple of rashers in the pan for me. That was the end of me being a veggie!

I have never thought of being a vegan and I would be worried about ensuring a child got all the nutrition it needed for healthy growth, but I expect if you are a vegan, you would need to know exactly what you were doing. It would be difficult for a mum or dad to cook non-vegan food for their children I suspect.

Kim
02-09-2008, 11:35 PM
I have never thought of being a vegan and I would be worried about ensuring a child got all the nutrition it needed for healthy growth, but I expect if you are a vegan, you would need to know exactly what you were doing. It would be difficult for a mum or dad to cook non-vegan food for their children I suspect.

Yes, I think you are right Angie, and if the child had never known a diet including animal products I suspect he/she wouldn't miss them. I am sure our diet whether vegetarian or otherwise falls short of all our required vitamins, then we can take supplements, (even B12 :roll: ) no big deal, obviously thousands do as there is a demand for multivits, etc.

Elvisisboss
03-09-2008, 02:39 AM
I admire vegitarians and to some extent vegans because I wish I had the strength of character to say no to meat but I am weak:(

I hate the thought of animals being killed and especially the way so many animals are kept and I try to push it to the back of my mind. I have made an attempt to stop in stages i.e. I haven't eaten lamb for a year and hope to move onto other animals in time. I know many vegitarians who are healthy with their diet so it is not strictly necessary to eat dead animals (she says while thinking about having a steak for tea!!).

i wouldnt say your 'weak; if say that you dont want to be veggie which is OK!!!

ive only jsut got to that point with my family (all vegan & veggie execpt my mum) im ALWAYS made to feel awful everytime i see them its ALL they talk about to the point where i now refuse to take part and leave the room or i get it down my neck :roll:

i dont want to be veggie i dont want to be vegan i love fish i love chicken, heck gimmie a nice bit of meat anyday over some tofu!

sorry everyone has there own opionins, ive seen the videos of under cover people in awful farms, playing foot ball with chickens heads, slitting cows throats, stunning pigs & gutting them, and i can honestly say they all have been brought up for a reason, to be eaten, had 'nice lifes' (in the people which stick to standards) & were killed in the nicest ways (bar playing football with a chicken!)

i just dont feel 'guilty' about it anymore unless the entire world goes vegan, which it wont, its still going to happen, so lets do it in the best envirnment and way possible

everyone to there own!



Yes, but vegetarians eat eggs, whcih contain B12

thing is some veggies dont eat eggs and vegans dont.

people always go on about them that they dont get there vits you can get ALL vits from fruit & veg!!!

you dont have to eat a animals to get it, and i wouldnt be worried about kids health cos they dont eat a dead piece of flesh, which is what it is! or a glass of milk, which oddly enough barely contains any calcium at all!

most kids eat a pile of crap now anyway, frozen chips/burgers/chocolate/sweets

what they dont eat they do not miss! if you didnt give them sweet stuff, which at a certain point (cant rem the age think it might be 8 months) if you give them sweet stuff there palat changes and they dont want the other stuff again!

if you dont give them crap.........they wont want it!

i never had a take away untill i was 15!! my mum cooked everyday, was aloowed choci at weekends on a firday night to me it was a 'special day' and on sundays my mum baked a real home made cake!

was a real family affair eating / cooking, sadly now days everyones 'so busy'

sorry gone off topic here!!!! anyway you can get ALL VITS without supplements and meat, just eat the right amount of veg really! :)

my sisters sone who is vegan eats EVERYTHING that other kids have accept it does not xcontain dairy/animals and no additaives his not hyper at all either like alot of kids you see!

meep
03-09-2008, 11:34 AM
My cousin was Vegetarian for a while and she suffered badly because of it; as a teenager she suffered bad periods (month long ones etc.) and so has had a problem with iron levels. I think going vege was something she did because her best friend at hte time did. It suited her friend down to teh ground, but she couldn't cope - it just didn't suit her personal biology. The moment she started eating meat again she was like a different person.

I think my body's biology is the same. I make sure I eat a steak the night before my period or I have no energy on the first day. If I don't eat meat at all for about 3 days I just don't feel right; very lethargic etc. I don't think I have an iron deficieny, but my body copes very well from a high meat diet.

My ultimate cuisine is french! Foie gras, steak dianne, duck mmm. I am a huge meat eater and can't imagine being any other way.

My auntie is vegan but she brought her son up vegetarian (allowing fish). I still don't think this is fair; I think everyone should be allowed to make their own informed decision when an adult, and until that point be allowed to eat a 'normal, healthy' diet. He's never had a bit of poultry, game or red meat in his life; what if one day he eats a burger when he's 17? I imagine his system might not cope very well.

Huge respect for vegetarians and vegans; but I don't like people that preach to me saying I should feel guilty for not being one; I know my own body and I know I need meat. I don't think it should be enforced upon minors, as they should be able to make their own decisions when older.

Darky
07-09-2008, 04:32 PM
I personally believe that veganism is a personal choice. Therefore, if I were vegan, I would not raise my child vegan although their diet would obviously be very affected for a great portion of their childhood.

Just like how I am agnostic and plan to raise a child with plenty of religious education, so that they can study and perhaps make a choice one day that is suitable for them.


Veganism and vegetarianism can be a wee bit dangerous is not done properly, also. You can live fine and healthy with such a choice, but you need to make sure that you are eating the right foods to get your needed nutrition.

Brigoose
11-09-2008, 10:05 PM
I clicked on this because i thought it was going to be a debate about people making their cats vegan:evil:


I think to be fair veganism has a very bad name, normally because people do not know enough about it, enough about nutrition in general and people think of vegans just eating lettuce leafs( or that's the reaction i normally got) Sadly alot of children suffer because of their parents just not knowing how to cater for their diets, but also parents bringing their kids up on other diets. I know more vegetarian and meat eating parents that feed their kids rubbish!
I can get PLENTY of links to prove that RAW veganism is actually the healthiest diet on earth. Children need different diets to us and most parents do not cater for that, i've seen vegan parents who think that a diet of 'carbs' and soya milk and cheese is a healthy diet. Dairy and meat products have been proven time and time again to cause ill health and some deadly diseases and allergies.Alot of babies are born allergic to cows milk.Soya is a GM food, is only be palatable when heated at a stupidly high temperature and causes ALOT of gas build up...healthy?
B12 and iron can be found in plenty of vegan food that is not in tablet form, higher amounts than meat and unless you are going to eat your meat raw, you cook most of the goodness out of it.
I dont have children at the moment, but when i do i will be feeding them on a raw vegan diet until i see evidence that their is another way and what other way is there but...nature?

Brigoose
11-09-2008, 10:08 PM
Just thought that evil face---:evil: could of been taken the wrong way, i was meaning my thoughts on vegan cats!

dandysmom
11-09-2008, 10:57 PM
Agree with you there, cats are obligate carnivores.

Elvisisboss
12-09-2008, 03:18 AM
hiya brigoose, i said the same thing (see past posts) my family is vegan & has vegan kids.

not sure if you are a member of her place but i can email you the links if you want..............

(she makes me tell anyone i meet who is vegan about her links.....sorry)

Kim
12-09-2008, 06:21 PM
Just a slightly different stance on this debate. Many of you don't agree that vegans should raise their child as such and I can understand this dilemma. My daughter was brought up as a meat eater, and became vegetarian when she was 12 (she is now 18) she wishes she had been brought up as vegetarian as she hates the thought that she has eaten 'dead animal' as she puts it. So turning this round, perhaps children should be brought up as vegetarian/vegans until they are old enough to make an infomed decision??

My daughter did need some supplements when she first became vegetarian as her body was used to eating meat, however, both she and my son have no problems now that their bodies have adjusted and now they source their nutrients from other foods. Sorry to disagree with anyone, but I don't think that we 'need' meat, we just need to make sure we are getting proteins, etc from another source and not omitting it from our diet altogether. :)

alexgirl73
12-09-2008, 06:40 PM
I can understand all the viewpoints on here, which have all been put across very well. As I said, my eldest daughter had been veggie since february, which I have no problem with. One thing I do have an issue with though, is how flaming expensive health foods and veggie foods are. This is what makes it so difficult for a lot of people I think on making the decision to go vegetarian. Fruits, veg and quorn products are so expensive compared to most other foods. I know I certainly feel the pinch more now.

Elvisisboss
12-09-2008, 06:43 PM
i can honestly say that i dont think veggie food is expensive, you can buy 8 veggie burgers for £1.59! x

Kim
12-09-2008, 07:59 PM
I must admit I don't find them too expensive either, 2 quorn fillets, compares favourably with 2 chicken fillets and I buy 6 Morrisons vege sausages for £1.50 and they are gorgeous! vege mince is cheaper than beef mince too. :)

alexgirl73
12-09-2008, 08:23 PM
i can honestly say that i dont think veggie food is expensive, you can buy 8 veggie burgers for £1.59! x

Where??? In my local shops it's that for 4!! and similar for sausages. Which I really begrudge when I can buy 20 Asda sausages for under £1! Also when you are just buying for one person it adds up, rather than the bulk buying you can do for a whole family.

Elvisisboss
12-09-2008, 10:14 PM
in tesco and sainsburys........... its well cheap!

my entire family is vegan & veggie my dad only spends about £5 a week shopping!

Ally-kats
12-02-2011, 07:24 PM
in tesco and sainsburys........... its well cheap!

my entire family is vegan & veggie my dad only spends about £5 a week shopping!

Totally agree! We also have an allotment which saves us a fortune, I have never eaten so healthily until I became vegetarian about 15 years ago. My children actually went veggie first :lol: The cat is the only meat eater and I could never deny him that as he can't make an informed choice and anyway it is natural for him to want meat. I wonder how many people would eat meat if they had to kill the animal themselves. I never preach to anyone about eating meat it is a personal choice but I am not sure I would have made my children vegans, after all it wasn't my choice that they gave up meat but their own. Each to their own I say:)

Phoenix
12-02-2011, 07:55 PM
Totally agree! We also have an allotment which saves us a fortune, I have never eaten so healthily until I became vegetarian about 15 years ago. My children actually went veggie first :lol: The cat is the only meat eater and I could never deny him that as he can't make an informed choice and anyway it is natural for him to want meat. I wonder how many people would eat meat if they had to kill the animal themselves. I never preach to anyone about eating meat it is a personal choice but I am not sure I would have made my children vegans, after all it wasn't my choice that they gave up meat but their own. Each to their own I say:)

Cats need meat anyway - they need the taurine from it.

Ally-kats
12-02-2011, 08:27 PM
Cats need meat anyway - they need the taurine from it.

Quite true, I was thinking about the vegetarian food for cats but after a quick google found that the taurine is added, never looked into that before :lol: Well at least that's ok then if they must have it:)

Brigoose
23-07-2011, 08:24 AM
I thought this was going to be a debate about vegans making cats vegans!

I have been vegan on and off for the past 5 years. There is alot of mis info about.
Any diet that is mainly full of breads and meats whether replica meats or not. Is not a healthy diet.
Many vegans live off vegan junk food, but also many meat eaters and vegetarians do.

Im actually a raw vegan now for health reasons. Meaning that I only eat uncooked unprocessed foods. Most people start this diet as a last resort for curing serious health problems and diseases, even cancer in some cases.
The only vitamins children can not get from a raw vegan diet is one of the K vitamins I think its K3 but not 100% this is easily resolved by given them an egg.
My iron/protein levels when I got them tested where actually high.
Like I said many people are misinformed by where they get there vitamins and minerals from.
Most of the time I see people sticking their children onto the diet the parent has always eaten without even researching food properly. People would rather take pills and potions from a doctor than take responsibility.
I dont have children but seem to know more about what they should be getting in regards to amounts and where from whilst alot of parents remain totally clueless.

truthisouthere
09-09-2011, 09:11 AM
Great thread Elaine and it is very difficult to answer. I do think it is perfectly acceptable to bring children up as vegetarians, but agree that it seems unfair in some ways to enforce veganism on them. As others have said it makes it difficult for Birthday parties, etc. However, I also understand why vegans are vegans as for example to produce enough milk for us to drink, cows are constantly pregnant, their calves are taken away from them and shot and cows don't live anywhere near their life expectancy due to being pregnant so often and overmilked. They also suffer with problems such as mastitis. As for egg production, I'm sure we all know the horrors of battery farms and that male chicks are killed as they are surplus to requirement, like male calves. Chicks are killed inhumanely and often put into a shredder alive. I only drink soya milk now & hope to have my own chickens soon.

I definitely don't agree that a vegan diet isn't natural, :? I know many vegans and they are usually very healthy! Of course you have to do yur research to make sure you get all the necessary vitamins & minerals, but by no means impossible. There are so many meat & dairy alternatives today that make it much easier. :)

A very interesting post. Kim, I agree with you, and others. You have your facts spot on. Any animal by product involves slaughter, stress and no matter the idelology we have been force fed to believe is in essence unnatural.

This species is the only species who after being weaned continue to take another animal's milk. How do we do this? We wait for an animal to drop it's young (artificially inseminated), shoot it's newborn causing enormous stress to it's mother (if it's male, female is raised to be treated like mum) then lie under it and drink it's milk...Now tell me that's natural or even fair... :(

Veganism can be a very healthy choice too if you are informed. My parents are both near vegan, and Dad's cholesterol and blood pressure have improved since he's been vegan (Dad is approaching 81 by the way and his cholesterol is 4 and blood pressure amazing). I'm almost there but do submit to the odd bar of milk choccie now and then even tho the alternatives are just as tasty. Again it's what's mass produced for us and readily available I think that makes people say it's an unfair option, because it's been drummed into our brains that in order to survice we must follow like sheep and consume the killing without independant thought or feeling for our companion animals, a hard habit to break but it can be done. You must want to do it to do it well.

truthisouthere
09-09-2011, 09:26 AM
Where??? In my local shops it's that for 4!! and similar for sausages. Which I really begrudge when I can buy 20 Asda sausages for under £1! Also when you are just buying for one person it adds up, rather than the bulk buying you can do for a whole family.

Yes, but without meaning to offend that is not the price of 'quality' sausage. That is the cheap fillers mass produced end of the scale. You will not find vege sausages made that way in cheap bulk simply because there are no undesirable by-products (nostrils, ears, hooves etc) left over to go into them to mass produce them.

You can however buy really good quality vege sausages for £1.50 upwards from most supermarket chains. I get some yummy ones from the chiller for £0.99 in Holland & Barrett. :) When I first became vegetarian 25 years ago I shopped in the health food stores because I didn't know any different, for a while I thought 'this is too expensive!' which is what I think most people misconceive as having to do. But it really is a cheaper and healthier way of living, as long as you know what you're doing, you learn where to shop quite quickly, it's not rocket science.

x-clo-x
17-10-2011, 02:58 PM
i dont think it is fair on a child to be brought up that way. after all it is not their believes.

my mum always said to us if we wanted to be vegetarian, then we could be when we were old enough to cook for ourselfs, (which by then we were old enough to form our own opinions based on facts and knowing about the real world) my mum said she wasnt going to cook two different meals at tea time, it was eat what you are given or dont eat at all.
my friends mum is a vegetarian, and has been since before she had children. yet she has brought up her children to eat meat and has cooked it for them, and then when they are old enough they make the decision themselves. which is the way i think it should be.

my sister tried it for a few months, soon went back to eating meat. i have no interest in being vegetarian or vegan the meat i eat is organic and ethically reared, and i think for me thats good enough.

Velvet
19-10-2011, 12:19 AM
A very interesting post. Kim, I agree with you, and others. You have your facts spot on. Any animal by product involves slaughter, stress and no matter the idelology we have been force fed to believe is in essence unnatural.

This species is the only species who after being weaned continue to take another animal's milk. How do we do this? We wait for an animal to drop it's young (artificially inseminated), shoot it's newborn causing enormous stress to it's mother (if it's male, female is raised to be treated like mum) then lie under it and drink it's milk...Now tell me that's natural or even fair... :(

Veganism can be a very healthy choice too if you are informed. My parents are both near vegan, and Dad's cholesterol and blood pressure have improved since he's been vegan (Dad is approaching 81 by the way and his cholesterol is 4 and blood pressure amazing). I'm almost there but do submit to the odd bar of milk choccie now and then even tho the alternatives are just as tasty. Again it's what's mass produced for us and readily available I think that makes people say it's an unfair option, because it's been drummed into our brains that in order to survice we must follow like sheep and consume the killing without independant thought or feeling for our companion animals, a hard habit to break but it can be done. You must want to do it to do it well.

Interesting post. I have several veggie friends and was a veggie myself for 3 plus years. I have to say here I dont really like meat so it was no hardship to cut it out. My mum likes it so I cook it for her but thats as far as it goes. I have fallen off the trail somewhat and occasionally eat poultry and/or fish ;(

I dont think i could be a vegan though, that is very strict

veganbee
09-08-2012, 11:47 AM
Sorry to dredge up an old post (but its been dredged up before by the looks of things!) but I'm vegan and wanted to conribute my two-penneth!

I was raised an omnivore but had a very liberal mum who always kept me informed of what I was eating (not like the kids you hear about now who don't understand where a beef burger comes from!) and as soon as I realised bacon came from pigs (I loved pigs!) I gave it up, all other meats soon followed until I was a true veggie at the age of 11 - mega kudos to my mum for supporting that decision. I really wanted to be vegan but my mum disallowed it until I was mature physically and wouldn't suffer any detriment. So I became vegan when I went to university at 18.

Having been vegan for 5 years now, I can strongly support the notion that vegans who do it 'properly' are possibly the healthiest people I know. I had an old flatmate who used to mock me, but then ate pasta, pesto and chicken breast 5/7 nights a week - great diet! Being vegan as opposed to just vegetarian made me more aware of everything I consume and so now I eat much healthier and have plenty more energy, better skin etc as a result.

As for children - I personally would not be able to feed my children meat as I really don't feel that healthwise it is the best choice (and don't all parents choose what they think is best for their children?), however I would not raise my children vegan. This is because being vegan makes you lactose intolerant, and I wouldn't want to enforce my beliefs on my children. I plan to raise them veggie but be open about meat and if they want to try it, allow it (similar to my mum's approach except the opposite) and minimise dairy products as I don't believe they're particularly healthy. That said, if my children reach an appropriate age for them to make an informed choice about their diet, I would fully support that decision, even if they wanted to become omnivores.

Phew! Didn't mean to make such a mega post!xx

Kirsten
23-11-2014, 10:54 PM
Why is giving your child a vegan diet "enforcing veganism on them" but giving them meat isn't "enforcing dead animal flesh" on them?

Kirsten
29-11-2015, 11:39 PM
personally its up to her what she does, my kids wont be vegan/veggie i think this is a choice they should make when they are older!



Nobody ever says that about eating meat though. Why not bring your kids up vegan and tell them they can make a choice to eat meat when they're adults if they want to?

I don't have kids, but if I did, they would be brought up vegetarian until they were old enough to cook for themselves. If I was vegan, they'd be brought up vegan until they were old enough to cook for themselves. "Imposing" veganism on kids is no different from "imposing" meat on them - all parents impose their beliefs on their kids.

Kim
01-12-2015, 10:36 PM
Why is giving your child a vegan diet "enforcing veganism on them" but giving them meat isn't "enforcing dead animal flesh" on them?

I was thinking the same!!!