another episode with kuan yin

[Tink]

okay so i think somewhere back in february i posted about this. it hasn't happened since february so it's not a regular occurence.
of course mau (her nickname) is young (one year) and gets hyper sometimes. we always joke "oh, mau's on a crazy" which usually means running around the house back and forth and jumping from counter to counter (not hurting anyone).
back when i last posted i said she kept jumping at me and biting and scratching the heck out of me. the more i'd try to push away or avoid the harder she went on me and i eventually let us both cool off in separate rooms. well, she did it again today.
she doesn't do this to the other animals, plays normally with them, and once in awhile bats a paw with claws in at the other cats which i think is fairly normal and not really an issue.
she doesn't do this to dad cuz he has alot of nerve damage so if she tries he simply doesn't respond because it doesn't hurt. i, on the other hand, feel it all and can't help but make it obvious that hurt.
so, i'm feeling terrible because i think i did a poor job showing her that that is not appropriate behavior. i did the typical wrong thing and thought it was "cute" when she was little and never corrected her. i think i was so happy she was in my life i overlooked it. i know, i know..poor parenting. it's my fault, not hers.
so, two questions.
first off, after acquiring several scratches and bite wounds (they bled a little) i scruffed her (the only way my face wouldn't get scarred up) and put her in the bathroom (i had the other kitties out and i didn't want her to shift her hyperness onto them so it was the only safe room at the moment). i let her sit for a few minutes then let her out and avoided her and didn't even make eye contact, basically ignored her. she was calmer but went for tigger (the seventeen year old) with claws out and that was IT..no way was i allowing that. i picked her up before he was harmed and put her in the bathroom AGAIN. this time i put tigger in the nursery and opened the door after a few minutes. she was then mellowed out.
was this an appropriate solution?
second question.
i messed up in disciplining her against this when she was little. is it too late to get her to not do this? again it's not all the time but i don't want her to do this anymore if it's possible.
it sounds silly but my feelings were hurt. these little attacks are always aimed at me. i had a cigarette while she had a time out and coached myself to not take it personally. i swear, it's like she's a feral when this happens.it's just, that's my baby, you know? i know, i'm too sensitive.
she's gotten used to tigger and cuddles (that came in march), she even lays next to tigger and gazes at him and falls asleep..and hestia came two weeks ago and even though they sometimes still hiss at each other i've found them on the same bed peacefully so i thought it was relatively accepted (as much as it could be for only two weeks, she didn't seem upset, just curious).
what boggles my mind is she's been really lovey and very good lately..she's not very affectionate but has been grooming me and allowing cuddles more often than usual.
then this.
anyway...opinions? help?
i do take ownership i should have handled this a long time ago. i just want to know what to do to fix it if i can at this point. i feel like a horrible mommy.
thanks for reading.

[dandysmom]

Well, first it was a mistake to not stop it when she did it as a kitten. It was cute, and didn't hurt much; so she didn't learn it was a no-no! If she'd played too roughly with mumcat she'd have been disciplined; also her sibs wouldn't let her play that hard. But, water under the bridge now, and no point beating yourself up about it at this point; what's done is done. I do think she might be a bit more stressed at the additions to the household than you thought. It has been a change for her sharing your love and attention with the others. I do not mean to imply in any way that you've neglected her at all!!! But cats are funny and I do think her nose might be a wee bit out of joint.
I think the way you handled it was very appropriate. Time out and ignoring her. Maybe a little more one-on-one time with her, and lots of praise when she behaves icely....???

[Tink]

yeah, you're probably right. funny thing is i was a little sad and thought she was at the "teenager stage" because she didn't want much to do with me. i was also thinking i haven't been able to afford new cat toys with her and play with those so maybe she just needs an outlet. every once in awhile she gets overstimulated. she's the kind of cat that will kiss you and give you a "love bite" on the hand. i found some jingle toys at the dollar store the other day but she wasn't interested. maybe i can make a makeshift wand toy...i'm just so broke right now with everyone's vaccinations happening to be this month.

[dandysmom]

Awww, you can amuse her with empty grocery bags, or a nice cardboard box with little holes (mouse size) cut in it for her to stick her paw thru...or the good old standbys: wadded up foil or a long piece of string with a feather tied on the end. I pick up bird feathers when I'm out walking and see one,..Leia likes to "kill" them .....

[angieh]

Hi Tink! I'm sorry you are upset by Kuan Yin's behaviour - as Eileen says it really is no use to beat yourself up about it and I am sure that Kuan Yin is still young enough to learn acceptable behaviour. Isolating her in the bathroom and ignoring her are good responses to the situation I think. I would agree with Eileen that she may be more stressed by recent changes than you and probably even she realises. A little more one to one time maybe a good option and home made toys are fine. Merlin's favourite was a plastic bottle cap with string fed through a hole and tied - leaving a "tail" and a longer piece for you to hold and drag around. The bottle cap seems to skip about and Merlin and Smudge found it entertaining. It was the only time they ever played together happily!

Keep at it - don't lose heart.

[Tink]

argh, i just wrote a long reply and my computer died!
anyway,
basically what i was going to say was thank you and i am wondering if she misses the interaction type play with me (like a wand toy). i used to do that but they all got chewed up or dissapeared. she plays solo with household items she finds or with the ferrets..there are plastic bags and boxes but if i try to play with those with her it ends up being an ouch again. she's also biting my ankles in the mornings as i do chores which she never did as a kitten and doesn't do to her dad at all.
to be honest, i haven't brought this up but around the end of last year (a few months before i got the ferrets and awhile before i got the cats after) she became distant from me as she became more of a juvenile rather than a kitten. i'll put it this way: she has NEVER climbed into my lap or gone to curl up with me. she has never rubbed against my legs or head butted me. nothing like that. even as a baby. i used to hold her alot but it was always my idea and she seemed to just put up with it.
once this distance started i stopped initiating holding her as she just squirmed. i'd bring her to bed but she'd just run away. i gave up that b/c i don't want to force her to want to be with me..i want her to want it on her own..and if she never does of course i'll still love her to death. but i have to admit i wish for it now and then.
the only time she lets me get close to her is if she's already sleeping. i sidle up next to her and she "allows" me to cuddle her and pet her softly. and if she's in a good mood she'll lick my face. but i could never approach her while she was awake and that would happen.
i know some cats are just independent and not as affectionate. but i have to admit i was talking to my OH about it about a month ago and i broke down and cried finally b/c i'd been holding it in so long..really, it breaks my heart. when she was a baby she was worried if we weren't in the same room. now she does her own thing.
i've tried ignoring her..no difference...so now i just try to get what i can from her but not force it...i talk to her everyday and tell her how much i love her but i don't overdo it and make it short b/c smothering her wouldn't help.
my OH said she'll be different when she's older..she's just young and busy patrolling the house and checking everything out all day. i hope he's right.
i haven't brought it up b/c really i am jealous of all of your kitties that love you so much. so now i'm spilling my guts..LOL.
i guess she'll come around in her own time. i wonder if she'll remember all the time we spent together when she was a baby. we used to do everything together. i don't know where i went wrong. i can't stand watching the videos i made of her when she was little b/c she is so different to me now..i just end up bawling.
okay, i'm crying now so i'm gonna stop writing. anyway, i get love from my ferrets and the other kitties...i'll love kuan yin as much as ever no matter what...but other animals can't replace my want for us to be close like before.

[meep]

Hi Tink,

Both Elaine and Angie have answered your points about Kuan Yin's behaviour really well, and I don't have much to add to that. I find just ignoring them, getting up and walking away, works best so that's what you did :)

As for your most recent post, about not feeling as close to her as you did, I am sorry to hear this *hugs* We brought up a litlte kitten by hand, Chaska, who was incredibly loving as a kitten but as she matured became quite like you described with Kuan Yin. Randomly a bit scratchy and sometimes aloof - also never a lap cat. She was outdoors, however, and from a feral mother so I think the fact she was out and about chasing rabbits all the time encouraged her 'wild side'. Does Kuan Yin get out much?

Also, you have already quite rightly said that you can't force affection onto a cat; it must be in their own terms. The fact that she licks your face to me is a sign of great intimacy!! I think that, as you said, as she's grown from kitten to adult hood she's gone through a few changes, but you have recently introduced a few new cats into the household, am I right (or is it just one?) This can be very unsettling for a cat, and it can take a good few months for both the old and new cat to settle in and become 'themselves' again.

Also, I think it's the otherway round: not just 'some' cats can be aloof. I think MOST cats are aloof and it's only a few that are overly affectionate all the time! (In my experience anyway). I've never had a lapcat, and afte rhaving my boys for 5 weeks, only yesterday did Minsky jump onto my lap and fall asleep for an hour, but he hasn't done it since. Whilst both my boys are very affectionate sometimes, and do like to sleep on the bed, there was one week where they didn't come into the bedroom at night at all 5 nights in a row. I lifted Darcy through onto the bed and he jumped off and ran out the room. (This is a cat that loves to be held, and has never squirmed to be put down before). That was a very strange week, but I think cats are tempramental and we can't understand all the things they do.

If Kuan Yin's behaviour has been going on for quite a while, the only way you could start to change it is gradually and patiently. The new cats will have unsettled her, but even if you hadn't taken any new cats on it might take a month or more to begin to get more affectionate out of her than is normal. I think what you're doing, stroking her when she's sleeping, is a good start. My other cat, Sophie, is a bit of a grump and it took me about a year to have her affectionate and cuddly with me. I started stroking her when she was asleep. At first she just 'put up with it', then she started to mellow and closer her eyes like she enjoyed it, then she started to purr, and finally she used to look forward to it and when I walked over she's meow and purr as I came over.

After that, I began to try stroking her as I gave her a treat in the kitchen, and she finally came round to that. About 4 months she would begin to run over to me affectionatelly, purring, when I came in the room. Cats are very independent and don't NEED to attach themselves to humans to exist peacefully, so I think when any cat does attach themselves to a human it is quite special.

I know lots of people on Catsey have cats that are very affectionate and attached, but I'm sure everyone has experienced at least once a small swipe of the paw when they've begun petting and kitty hasn't beein in the mood, or when they try and give them cuddles and they walk out the room and begin cleaning themselves as if to say "i want some alone time please!"

I guess, in summary, I would say be patient and give her space, but gradually build up the affection. It won't happen over night, and I am sorry to hear it's upsetting you, but she does still love you! I find a good trick is make sure you're the only one feeding her? That way she'll associate you with food, and food-giver, and the affection may come on a bit quicker? It worked with Sophie ;)

[meep]

Sorry for long post! But I also meant to add. My two are brothers and can be affectionate, but every single time I've been playing with one of them, and the other joins in, the first slinks off and looks a bit pee-d off. Every time. They can play together by themselves happily, but I've definately picked up on some jealousy.

And they have switched dominant roles a few times. When we first got them, Darcy was boss and Minsky was quite subdued. Not just with Darcy but with us. Minsky didn't give much affection or attention and was hesitant to play. But then one day Minsky was overly affectionate and playful and Darcy was hiding at the top of the wardrobe. So I'm guessing Minsky won a play fight. Then again Darcy switched to dominant and Minsky receeded in his affection towards us.

But now Minsky has found a good balance. He's affectionate and playful, and whilst at first Darcy took it quite hard (he refused to be held, he didn't purr, and didn't sleep on the bed whenever Minsky was there first) he's come round to the idea.

So it might not just be you, but the politics of hte other cats. Even if you don't give the others more attention, one of them might be more dominant and have sent out the signals of 'back off from my human!' I'm afraid that's something only they can sort out.

[angieh]

Oh Tink, I am sorry that Kuan Yin's lack of overt affection has upset you so. I think meep's advice above is spot on. You're doing great with her - I think you just need to remember that she is a young cat and cats, as we all know, are independent creatures who can sometimes be aloof and distant. She will change with age - she is a teenager now and sounds like she is acting very much like one!

[meep]

Angie - I wish I could be as concise and to the point as yourself :lol: Well said.

What Angie said is very true about her being a teenager, just try and focus on the things she currently does that make you smile and not thing things she might not be doing, such as sitting in your lap. I think sitting in someone's lap and affection aren't necesarily linked, even though it would seem that if a cat sits in your lap = affectionate cat. Darcy is very affectionate but hasn't even so much as sniffed at my lap.

[Tink]

thank you. it just bothers me this started before i added to my household. it wasn't the sole reason but something that crossed my mind, when i got baby bear (the first ferret), that "at least i'll stop being so heartbroken about kuan yin and might have someone who wants my attention". i really wish i could say it was just the other additions. but i didn't bring them in till after me and her had this seperation.
yes i suppose she's a teenager. she doesn't go outside at all but there are lots of critters in tanks and cages around here that she likes to keep track of. i think she thinks they are her pets..LOL.
anyway, i'll love her forever whether she wants to be around me or not. she sure loves her dad though. she'll follow him around the house after he gets home. guess some boring mom who is always home b/c she's on disability gets old. oh, well.

[meep]

Tink, you do seem very wound up by this whole situation, it is such a shame :( But I think cats are very sensitive to energy and emotions and even if you act happy and playful with Kuan Yin she may pick up on your resentment towards her lack of affection?

I would suggest maybe chilling out a wee bit towards her, still being loving etc. but not concentrating so much on all you've mentioned in your post. Just don't think about it, try not to get emotionally engaged and it might 'clear the air' a bit. It seems, in your heart, you're putting a lot of presure on Kuan Yin to be as she was as a loving little kitten, and she may pick up on this pressure?

I dont at all mean that to sound harsh or accusational - it's so hard to convey these things by text online! Really don't try to take it personally though. If I'm ever first home and my OH is out for another few hours they'll quit eoften meow and scratch at the door and ignore me. Cats do these things and we can't really understand why.

[angieh]

meep has put this so well Tink - I know it's very hard but just try to stand back a bit. (((HUGS)))

[Tink]

i have, not being defensive but i have. i haven't thought about the affection thing much..i think this recent "attack episode" just brought it all up again and made the wound a bit fresh again. i try to concentrate on all my other "kids". tigger and cuddles are 17 and deserve all the love they can get and hestia is so new she needs lots of reassurance. plus, you can't forget them ferrets..anytime i feel sad they immediately throw themselves around and perform antics to make me laugh almost on cue.
i was probably having a hormonal moment (finally getting it checked after numerous hysterical phone messages i left saying it couldn't be ignored any longer..LOL) so that probably doesn't help.
thanx for setting me back on track. you're right.
new game plan: focus on the other kids, still let kuan yin know she's loved without exactly being attentive (tricky..), and just focus on the thought when it comes up that she'll come around one day.

[meep]

Don't worry Tink, we all need to rant and vent sometimes. Hopefully you'll feel better soon :) And it's lovely to hear about your other pets, both cats and ferrets! The ferrets sound so cute!

[angieh]

Take care of yourself Tink - you know we're all here when you need us.

[dandysmom]

This is a good safe place to vent when you feel the need, Tink! We all need to do it sometimes, and you know we'll listen and we care...(ooh, sounding a bit soppy, but you know what I mean...)