Turning 3 little devils into angels

[Elaine]

If any of the doggy people have any tips or useful info which may help, then I am all ears.
Here's the story.
I have 3 little horror dogs on the books.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Pet%20sitting/DSC00040.jpg
Millie, the ring leader. She is dog aggressive and pulls on the lead till she chokes but doesnt stop. This little minx, on my first walk, managed to slip her collar and go running off down the road towards a guy with 2 cockers, fortunately an on coming car DID see her, wasnt going too fast and stopped so I could get hold of her.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Pet%20sitting/DSC00041.jpg
Roxy, a lovely little dog but scared and insecure. On another walk, the postman was walking towards us, Millie and the other Yorkie began barking and snarling, as i tightened the lead on them so they couldnt attack, the jack russell bit the postman:shock:
After these two episodes, I thought it may be better to simply do some garden play time with them. The owner hadnt informed me that the dogs could also be people aggressive and had said nothing when he was told, nor did he provide me with a muzzle, so garden play it was to be.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/ElainePirie/Pet%20sitting/DSC00039.jpg
Toto. In the garden would jump into my arms like a baby, each time he did this i simply put him back down on the floor. He would attack Roxy and steal Roxy's toys, bones etc.
So, I began to dislike these dogs alot, I know it's not their fault and how i was begining to feel towards them made me feel guilty because i actually wanted to drop them from being on my books. Had a good long chat with my sister and she offered to come with me to see them yesterday.
We decided to take them out for a walk. We waited in the house for quite a while for them to calm down b efore setting off. My sister took Roxy and Millie and took Toto. All went fairly well until we met two dogs. Millie, kicked it all off, Roxy became nervous and Toto bit Roxy.
My sister offered to come with me again today. This time we took each dog, in no particular order, other than leaving Millie till last. One at a time we took a 20 minute walk with each dog. My sister being an observer and checking me if she thought I was tensing up on aproaching a situation.
Those 3 holy terrors, didnt get walked for an hour but 20 minutes each but the walks were calmer, dogs walked to heal mostly, two of them had be checked on occasion. By the end of the walk and inside their house, my sister asked me just to stand quietly, not to look at the dogs or talk to them. And instead of them still jumping around and yapping, all three dogs, after a short time, lay down in their own little spots and relaxed. What a treat it was to leave them that way.
I love animals but i am no Ceasar Milan, so i welcome any advice from experienced doggie people and would like to say a very big thankyou to my sister for helping me and putting me into a better relationship with these dogs coz i dont want to give up on them now.

[farthing]

Hi, don't know if I'll be much help, but what are their ages and when did they join the pack. My Corrie, who is 2, is always having a go at Levi, who is 3, but Levi is a very insecure dog. The aggression isn't bad, but it is Corrie sensing that Levi is next on the stepping stone in the order of dominance, and challenging him. I'ts not bad, but flairs up around me. I would suspect you won't be able to change things too much as the owner will continue to treat the dogs in the way they are accustomed to, therefore always weakening any rules you lay. Ignoring this behaviour is best and as your sister says, looking away, etc when they are jumping around will help
Sorry, not much help and my dogs are very biosterous, they jump all over people, but never bite, accept any dog into the house and generally get on with only the odd squabble- only been to the vet once with a bite.

[Elaine]

Thanx for that Farthing but I do beleive that these little dogs will begin to behave differently around me if I can remain calm and in control when I am around them. I am not totally sure of the ages but think that Roxy is the eldest, followed by Millie and then Toto. The owner is a nervous kinda chap, so yes their behaviour wont change with him but i am, after yesterday, begining to see how they can react just by sharing a calm and authoritive energy around them. I am just hopping i can continue this on my own now as its easier when some one else is with you.
I beleive at the moment the pack leader is Millie, Toto is dominant over Roxy and attacks her because she is insecure. I also think that Roxy is going to be the biggest challenge because of her insecurity.

[Jac]

Elaine, how many times a week are you walking them? Personally I would walk each one alone. Build up a trust with them. May be take a tit bit in your pocket but knowing you, you already do that. reward good behaviour. Once you have there respect! cause it sounds pretty much like the rule there owner. Only then I would walk them as a pack. Once they see you as top dog.

Is the owner approachable? If he is why not recommend some bachs in there water for a wee bit? It may calm the dog that needs it down and ease the stressy dog. Just an idea.

[farthing]

Something also worth mentioning to the owner is a DAP diffuser, its the dog version of a feliway. They don't always work, but it certainly helped Corrie, he was constantly peeing in the house- if somebody came to the door, if somebody came into the house, if somebody raised their hand to pet him- it has all but stopped and the dogs are generally more calm with it on, I have one plugged in all the time. I also keep a feliway plugged in for the cats and don't seem to have problems with cat fights or spraying, and that's with 8 cats, although we do have 9 litter trays.:shock:

I also agree with Jac about walking them individually until they settle down, I wonder how often he takes them for a walk, sometimes this kind of behaviour can be cause by anxiety.

[Elaine]

I have alot of trouble comunicating with the owner in all honesty, he is a mumbler and i can barely understand what he says, he is also a nervous kind of character who never even bothered to contact me after Roxy bit the postman to talk about it.
I think he see's the dogs as little furry people and other than Millies dog aggression, I dont think he see's any real problems with them.
I do intend to take them out individually from now on, as i know that is the only way i can address each one individually and correct their behaviours.
Although I beleive that possitive reward is the way to go, I am not a huge fan of always giving treats as a reward. The reward they got yesterday was that they could relax more because i was being taught how to take control and they didnt have to worry as much, which helped them to enjoy the walk and relax after it. They got a small food treat before i left which was when my sister and I stood and waited for them to go lie down and listen to the big sigh that two of them gave, of a weight being lifted from them.
Now that may sound a bit airy fairy but I left that house yesterday feeling 10 feet tall and in complete control, not so much of their lives but of mine.
Does that make sense to any one?
I only see them for two hours each week but if i can walk back into that house with the same feeling i left with yesterday, those dogs may feel more secure and less likely to want to try and take charge. They will always behave the same way around the owner because they will feed off his nervous energy and indecisive mind.
Whilst i think RR and Dap defusers etc can play a part, they wont change the dogs unless he takes control. I will however mention them as they may well be more beneficial to Roxy than to the other two.
Thankyou for reminding me of these things.

[angieh]

I'm being nosey now - your sister obviously knew exactly how to handle those dogs (and you!). Does she have a background in animal behaviour, or a lot of experience with how to handle badly behaved dogs?

[Elaine]

I'm being nosey now - your sister obviously knew exactly how to handle those dogs (and you!). Does she have a background in animal behaviour, or a lot of experience with how to handle badly behaved dogs?

My sister has always had dogs and trained them herself, she is a very calm person with alot of patients, for animals that is;) . She has also made mistakes with animals but learns from them.

[Elaine]

These three little dogs have remembered their lessons from last week:D Only had to check them a couple of times.
Millie, the dog aggressive yorkie, didnt even bark when we saw another dog:shock: she did pull towards it a few times and I checked her for that and kept the walk upbeat, brisk and relaxed. Roxy the Jack Russell now realises that when we are back on her street, it takes her longer to get home if she pulls;) . All three were settled and relaxed when i left them.
I applied the same rules to SuzyQ when i tokk her out today and she too was very good indeed and got the point that she has to walk with me and not infront very quickly.
Sad thing is, owner is now in contact with Bordeaux rescue for another:roll: I am hoping that they vet him well and decline him, for both dogs sakes.

[Kazz]

Elaine looks like good advice from your sister sometimes dogs get out of hand because they can they do need rules and firmish handling "ie told what to do" other wise they make the rules up as they go....try the walking individualy for a good while and when you think its going well do it for a bit longer dogs get into a routine then maybe get your sister to walk with you with the three of them......just to reset the dynamics as a pack...if you can control them one to one the pack should fall into place.....much easier as they will respect you.....as the boss and look to you for guidance....and if you stay calm, they will too if you eradicate their bad habits like pulling dog barking/lunging etc...then they should be happy pack....although I would stil do at least 2 walks out of the say 7 you do as indiviual walks especially as you are not with them 24/7 to reinforce what they are being taught.

Best luck not that you need it. Karen

[Elaine]

Thanx Kazz, most of that is what my sister has been saying too. Interesting about doing 2 out of 7 walks individually to keep them on track, when the time comes that is.
Thankyou so much, I will keep it in mind.:D

[Kazz]

Just take a rough guess.........doesn't have to be 2 but whatever you think you to remind them of the rules and reinforce what you want and stop any bad habits happening...before they happen....so to speak and it gives you one to one with them and you could make that a walk including some time on an extending lead type of thing...........I assume they do not get free running .....given their track record,....plus they are not your dogs....so on extending lead.........make it a bit of fun.....;) .......different for them. Excerise their brains and their bodies.....

I used to walk Sal and Tess together but would always do at least one walk a day on their own....."our" time and at least one good off lead walk/run/fun a week with just me and one of them............reinforce what I want and behaviour that I consider suitable...........and they are mine, because each of them prefered something different too....you'll soon get it Sal is toy/ball mad and happy to fetch ball back all day...........Tess much prefers to find things searching...and pottering about chasing squirrels etc......each to their own.........different personalites. Walking as a pack is fine there is nothing better if your dynamics are good, but indivdual time is to be valued by both parties.

[Elaine]

Dogs are improving alot. The one that worries me most is the jack russell, Roxy. She has made great improvements on her behaviour in the house, i.e. sits and waits for me to open the door, waits for me to walk out first, no snatching her treat etc. But on the outside world, she is very insecure indeed. I cannt pass any dogs with out her screaming, and I mean screaming and up on her hind legs. I try not to put tension on the lead until she starts, and then I try to just keep her moving forward. If i stop and tell her to sit, she looks at me, almost cowering, like I am about to beat her.

[Elaine]

Roxy was so much better today, we had a one or two hicups but nothing compared to her hysterics yesterday. I was so proud of her today and gave her a big fuss when she was calm, to let her know that that is a good state of mind to be in.
I guess its gonna be a case of two steps back and one forward until she gains the confidence.

[Mags]

Good to hear your patience with the dogs is paying off Elaine..:)

[Elaine]

Good to hear your patience with the dogs is paying off Elaine..:)


Its now a mission to try to get these dogs in order and then I would like to show the owner, if he will allow, just how some patients, structure and calmness can go a long long way.

[Mags]

Good thinking....he doesn't appear to have given them much training at all..:?

[Kazz]

Glad its kinda coming together Elaine. Just been out with Sal and we were strolling down a pathway, when a woman pproached with a nice looking Westie wearing a snazzy pink coat (dog not woman) however looks can be deceiving the dog did everything including flipping her self upside down- somehow - to get at Sal.....who just looked at me as if to say "Hello, slightly OTT don't you think?" the woman did not say a word to me and made no move to correct the dog or reassure it nothing..............some people are simply a bit odd.

[Elaine]

Crazy people, honestly, had a similar experience yesterday morning. Went for a walk with my sister and her dog, we passed a fence and the dog behind it went berzerk:shock: Holly looked at my sister with the same look you describe of Sals:lol: :lol: :lol:
When i was walking the Millie, one of the yorkies, today, a woman tried to make a big fuss of her, saying how cute she was etc. Millie just ignored her, sat down, looked right up at me and began to bark:shock: The woman said that she'd better let us get going as the dog was impatient, I said no coz she has to learn that we do things on my say so and not hers. Millie jumped at me, I calmly held my hand out and said sit, the woman exclaimed, Dont hit the dog!!!:shock:
I calmly turned, looked at her and said, I have no intention of hitting this or any other animal, that is not the nature of how i do things and explained that Millie is learning some manners. She told me i was taking things too far:lol: :lol: :lol: I simply said, if you have a dog and need a walker, please dont call me coz I'd hate to see the mess of her dog.

[Elaine]

Roxy, insecure little jrt, took one giant step forward today. She sat quietly and calmly, pushed her little head through the slip lead. We wlaked together without any fuss. Met another dog on the opposite side of the road, she did begin to whine, I kept walking and she didnt rise to the hysteria stage. She was still whinning a little after we passed the dog so i checked her and she stopped. Thats a massive improvement for her. Well done that little dog;)

[Mags]

Roxy, insecure little jrt, took one giant step forward today. She sat quietly and calmly, pushed her little head through the slip lead. We wlaked together without any fuss. Met another dog on the opposite side of the road, she did begin to whine, I kept walking and she didnt rise to the hysteria stage. She was still whinning a little after we passed the dog so i checked her and she stopped. Thats a massive improvement for her. Well done that little dog;)

...............and well done to her 'trainer' for having patience with her ;)

[Moli]

Brilliant Elaine your paitence is paying off, and sure Roxy must be feeling better too.....well done.:D

[Elaine]

I am by no means a trainer:shock: Just using patience and common sense. I am so chufffed for the little dog though, normally she is scared of her own shadow.

[angieh]

You certainly are patient though Elaine - never give up. Never the dog's fault .......... well done little jrt.

[Elaine]

There are days when you can get frustrated, those are the days that you sit the animal down and give it a massage, it helps to relax both of you before taking the walk, or even on the walk. Then control your breathing, hold your head up and get on with it. I think it helps when you enjoy what you do.

[Kazz]

I think the more confident you are the more you suceed with dogs...as that chap the whisperer says the dog takes on your persona....which is right I think, confidence brings about a certainty that you "see a picture in your head and go for it"

[Elaine]

I agree Kazz but sadly I only have these dogs twice a week for one hour, as i dont walk them together that means they are only getting 15 to 20 minutes.
I did try talking with the owner but he doesnt see a problem with the dogs and laughed when he told me that Roxy had bit the postman again.

[Kazz]

Always find it odd that peope find it funny when a small dog bites but a death sentence when a larger dog bites...you can only do your best Elaine.

[Elaine]

Would he find it so funny if Royal Mail took the matter into their own hands, they have the power and the right to.