2 cats with crf - stressed over food & vets!!

[eden]

Hi. I'm new to this board. Have been reading lots of US boards but their vet care seems so different to UK. Just back from frustrating visit to vet. Pls tell me if I am making sense to anyone else.....

I have 2 15yr old cats both registered with diff vet practices. Josey was diagnosed with early crf end last yr (also heart disease and lost toe to oestosarcoma, ALL at the same time), and George diagnosed 2 weeks ago. Both cats seem in excellent 'normal' health, eating very well, just drinking lots. Both now on Fortekor. Both vets behaving like demi-gods. Josey is hugely overweight which in itself is a problem. George was taken into the vets for a dental op week before last and I asked if they could do blood tests and urine as I wanted to rule out lurking problems - his urea & creatinine was so high the vet wouldnt operate and had him on an IV for 24hrs - had I not asked for the tests the op could possibly have killed him! (he still wasnt showing any signs of problems which is still confusing me.)

Normally both cats have been on premium wet food (Applaws, Denes, Hi-life) with few t/d biscuits for gingivitus probs. Both vets preach the gospel of Hills food and essentially say I MUST make them eat k/d (or t/d) or I am being a bad owner. Predictably, both cats hate the stuff, have tried Royal Canin version and general Science Diet for Seniors - still no go. The vets seem to have no issues with dry food but I do.

Having digested all the info I've researched, my common sense tells me dry food is a no-no when you are concerned about keeping cats hydrated. And if the concern is toxins in the kidneys - surely feeding HIGHLY processed prescription food like Hills is crazy, isnt real food the way to go? not necc BARF but food, with as few additives/chemicals as poss - does this make sense to anyone else??? are cats designed to eat cereals and gunk? their bodies are designed to eat high (good) protein food. Both vets say the cats must be on low protein diets also but I have read enough to convince me that that is not necc so and low phosphorous is the bigger issue. Is it really, truly in my cats best interests to make them eat food they obviously dont want? The vet tonight said he'd discuss phos binders etc depending on results of tonight's blood/urine test. Are they a better option?

I do think these foods are probably better than low-grade supermarket food and having discovered recently that I can buy all these prescription foods, drugs and flea products on-line and have been paying 50-60% markup at vets on these - I can understand why vets push these products so hard. Am I being way too cynical here - or am I making sense??????? Should I just accept vets know best and do what they say? Does anyone have any recommendations of 'normal' but relatively low phosphorous foods available in the UK??

If you've read this far - thanks!

[Fran]

Hi and warm welcome. You sound quite frustrated right now with it all :( I have not much experience of long term CRF but one of our members, Elaine is very knowledgeable. I'm sure she will be along soon to advise but if you wish you could pm her. I hope you will stick around and let us know how both your cats get on..

[Elaine]

Hiya Eden, you are making complete sense to me. Have been there with the whole CRF and prescription diet thing.
The protein/phos content arguement can go on for ages but I personally feel that if you can find a food with a good protein source and a low phos content which if my memory serves me well, I think applaws has and your cat wont eat the prescription foods.........
I also think that phos binders would help too.
CRF can be an emotional rollercoaster, there are a few of us on this board who have been there.
http://www.catsey.com/showthread.php?t=25488
I and many others here would be only too happy to try and help where and if we can. xxx

[yola]

Hello, welcome and I'm glad you've found us. As well as being a bunch of catophiles we also, between us, have quite a range of experiences. CRF is not mine, but it sounds like you have looked into it in great depth and have been quite analytical in your findings. What's heartwarming is that you obviously and totally have your cats' welfare at heart.

Elaine and several other members here have a wealth of knowledge of CRF so you've found the best place to exchange experiences.

It's nice to meet you Eden, and I hope you stick around beyond your obvious and immediate need for information.

[Grete]

Welcome to Catsey, sorry you are having such a frustrating time of it :( I have no experience so I shall leave that to the fantastic people here that do :)

One thing perhaps tho - might a change of vet be in order? You need one that will work with you, not condescend to you :(

Take care - we'd love to see some pics of your babies :)

[dinahsmum]

Hi there - welcome to Catsey
CRF - mmm. It's a sad fact that kidney problems seem to plague our older felines. And before anyone says it's modern feeding I'll refer to an old one at home when I was a kid umpteen years ago, who faded away with kidney problems.

You'll have to find your own way through this, either taking or leaving thoughts and suggestions from this and any other cat sites you visit. If you think it's right and is working for your furries then it probably is. There are plenty here who have 'been there, done that'. I've lost 2 oldies in the last 3 years. The first went as soon as she was diagnosed, so I have no treatment experience for her. The second, a Siamese, progressed well on Fortekor and survived well over a year with the CRF to be overtaken by lymphoma aged 17. She had bloods taken 2 weeks before her demise, which showed her kidney results in normal range.

The vet recommended Royal Canin kidney diet food, which comes as pouched wet and dry. Mini quite liked it but at times when her appetite failed I gave her human' foods like
chicken, fish etc. I asked my vet about this and he said fine - try to give her 'rubbish' meat rather than prime protein - so if you're cooking chicken, give her the skin, meat - give her the fatty bits. He was happy for me to offer mashed potato with non-salty gravy and bits of meaty scraps, or rice or pasta (she was very fond of spag-bol!). Anything to keep her wight and muscle mass up.

Best of luck to you - I'm sure you'll stick around to tell us how you get on. Remember, they're your babies, you know them better than anyone and I'm sure you'll work out how best to help them through this.

[angieh]

Hi Eden - welcome to Catsey. Sorry it's under such sad circumstances.

I agree with other comments as above. I'd just say that changing your vet sounds like good advice, especially if you can get your two into the same vets (think you said they both go to different ones) - easier for you all. Ask on this site if anyone in your area can recommend one.

You are obviously a strong advocate for your four-legs, so just keep at it! Lol to you and the cats.

[eden]

Thanks for messages.

Was starting to feel reassured about all this but vet has just rung with latest blood test results which are a bit better than last week. However he insists that the only thing I can do to help is feed Hills k/d. I have 2 weeks to get George fully on it. He now won't discuss phos binders or alternatives. He is getting the Hills veterinarian rep to phone me to explain why it is benefical and how I can get my cat to eat it - which should be interesting!!!

I hope I didnt come across as arrogant in earlier post.. but
I am getting really frustrated. I realise vets deal with this all the time but I know my cats! And when vets are
getting 50+% markup on Hills food I cant accept that this is unbiased advice. My head is all over the place with this......


Annoying thing is I have only just transferred my other cat (Josey) over to this vet before I started having this latest experience that has left me feeling unsure and unhappy. The female vet I like so much that made me go there in the first place has now reduced her hours so I cant see her....

[dinahsmum]

Can you get the food on-line? I could get the one Min used, but there wasn't a lot of price difference. Would it make you feel differently if you knew your vet wasn't making money on the nutrition side?
I agree it is very difficult - you want to do the best for your pets but ............. it's difficult to know just how much effect the diet has and how much the medication has.
You could test this of course, by just giving pills and feeding what you think is a good diet, then seeing how the bloods work out. But if the results are bad, you will beat yourself up. :?
Take care of yourself and love your cats - you'll reach your decision in your own time

[angieh]

Mags posted a link to Burns nutrition on another thread a little while ago and, on looking at the site, they do make a special food for CRF cats. I don't know the cost, but at least you can search on the site to find out the nearest supplier, which was good for me as there is one in my local village.

http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/dietetic_food.htm

I understand your concern that the vet and Hills may somehow be in cahoots, but it could be that the vet has confidence in their product. My cat Merlin has had urinary problems for many years - struvite formation and tendency to cystitis and infections and I have to say that he was on low pH vet diet for years until one day he suddenly refused to eat it. It was in the days before you could buy vet diet on the Internet.

Good luck Eden - we do understand your frustration and I do not think that you sounded arrogant at all, just plain frustrated! Let us know how your and your cats get on. Hugs to you all.

[eden]

- I do now buy all products, drugs, food, flea control online and thats how I realised the markup vets make - I did a bit of phoning around and they seem to consistently have 50%+ mark-up. I would feel MUCH more confident if I knew it wasnt in their interests to promote the product. I cant argue against statistics and reports, I can only go with my gut which is saying NOOOO!

[dinahsmum]

So - go with the Fortekor and a 'good' diet? Min ate less and less diet food and more and more 'just eat something for goodness sake' food, like chicken etc. Her final blood tests 2 weeks before she died were in normal range.

[Elaine]

Hi Eden, did the vet say why they wont discuss phos binders instead? I remember only too well how frustrating it is when bets tell you that they MUST eat the hills kd and nothing else, so many times i left the vets feeling frustrated and upset by them. In the end i called round other vets and enquired as to their knowledge of CRF and found one that I could work with for Winstons benefit.
I assume, as you are fairly well clued up on CRF, that you have visited this site http://www.felinecrf.org/
It was a bit of a bible for me tbh and Helen does try to respond asap if you wanted to contact her for advice.

I wish you and your cats all the very best, hugs and cuddles to all of you. xxxx

[eden]

Hi Elaine
Thanks, yes I have read up on the site mentioned.

Vet just kept repeating the food was the thing, binders not relevant, hadnt even thought to check phos result. I wonder if they are not used to people questioning so much...? Thanks for support.

[Elaine]

Just an idea but is it possible for you to call round all local vets with some knowledge on CRF and asking for a second opinion with regards to diet and the possible use of phos binders?
Do you have a copy of the blood test results?

[Elaine]

It might be worth looking into this food.
http://www.specific-diets.com/Default.aspx?ID=7550

[eden]

Thanks for link Elaine.

No I dont have the full blood test results as they would only verbally give me urea and creatinine.

I did contact some vets today - havent got that many locally to contact. One large practice emailed me that they have a 'South African Internal Medicine specialist'? Might be a possibility. You would assume all vets are specialists in internal medicine though wouldnt you? Have had so many late nights on the internet - need an early night tonight and will get back to it at the weekend.

[Kay]

I have no experience of CRF but wish you and your cats all the best.