View Full Version : Is 5 litters too much? (off topic posts from GD thread)
borderdawn
18-01-2008, 10:29 PM
has a maximum of 5 litters one every year
Its a lot, too much for my liking. There is a retired one by me, a black Lab, she is 8yrs and has had 4 litters, she looks about 15 and has an undercarriage that almost drags on the floor, poor thing.
This lady also has a GSD that she walked but it failed its training, she says GD are not wanting to use GSD's any more, is thsi true Smudgely?
random
18-01-2008, 11:14 PM
Its a lot, too much for my liking. There is a retired one by me, a black Lab, she is 8yrs and has had 4 litters, she looks about 15 and has an undercarriage that almost drags on the floor, poor thing.
This lady also has a GSD that she walked but it failed its training, she says GD are not wanting to use GSD's any more, is thsi true Smudgely?
I had no idea they had so many litters, rather a lot for my liking also. Are they really that short on brood bitches that they have to have up to 5 litters per bitch?
Sorry to hear about Tarn Dawn. :(
We are not short at all on bitches Random.
But 4 / 5 litters is what we consider a reasonable number.
Why how many litters do you think they should have. Don't forget they are being bred for a working home, not for the fun of it or for money as lots of litters are. :roll:
I agree, 4/5 litters is absolutely fine. I disagree that there is money to made in breeding litters though! Maddie's Optigen testing has just cost me £150 and her recent yearly eye cert £30, Ruby's hip and elbow testing has cost me £300 Maddie's latest stud fee has cost me £350, all in the last couple of months and I have no puppies yet and may not have any?? I was in negative equity with Tikka's last litter, stud fee + cost of raising litter, feeding pups and mum etc and C section, 5 puppies born??
Fran I didn't say there was any money to be made in dog breeding. I have bred dogs myself so I know how expensive it is, but what I did say is that lots of litters are bred for money which is absolutely the truth.
How can litters be bred for money if there is no money to be made? :? If you have a large litter with few problems then yes you may make a little profit. If you do then you are lucky but it's just ploughed back into the dogs for their next set of health tests, vet bills etc.. In my breed, poorly bred dogs are common place often with no health tests. When I started out I intended to address this issue and have done so and have bred in my eyes my 'perfect' puppy. One that has 0/0 elbow scores 0/0 hip scores is PRA Optigen clear by parentage has a current clear eye cert, is extremely biddable and shows bags of promise in working trials and is hoping to compete later this year. For me, that is what I only ever dreamt of doing, for it to become a reality means everything, that's why I breed, not for any possible financial gain ;)
Fair enough! In support of what you are saying, I do agree that GD are being bred for a very good reason and I don't think 4/5 litters per breeding bitch is exceptional in any way. Of course each bitch is different and has to be assesed on it's own merits but I see no problem at all with 4/5 litters per breeding bitch being the GD policy :)
Have deleted all my posts in this thread.
Why Smudgely? :smt017
smudgley
19-01-2008, 09:34 AM
I deleted the posts as I didn't like the title of the branched thread. "Is 5 litters too many" I know that was the topic of conversation, but felt with that title it seemed like I was justifying what we do & unproffessional of me to do so on a public forum.
Most of what I said is still there as quoted.
That's all. :cool:
PS - I stand by / agree with everything I said though. :)
borderdawn
19-01-2008, 05:48 PM
I agree, 4/5 litters is absolutely fine.
I dont, poor ******s, breeding machines.
I disagree that there is no money to made in breeding litters though! Maddie's Optigen testing has just cost me £150 and her recent yearly eye cert £30, Ruby's hip and elbow testing has cost me £300 Maddie's latest stud fee has cost me £350, all in the last couple of months and I have no puppies yet and may not have any?? I was in negative equity with Tikka's last litter, stud fee + cost of raising litter, feeding pups and mum etc and C section, 5 puppies born??Breeders who breed a lot always say that Fran. (not saying you do) Most show people would never ever consider breeding even 3 litters from a bitch let alone 5! :evil:
You quote one off fees there Fran of £850 and that was for 2 different dogs. Say 10 puppies at what? 550-600 pounds each, not bad really. If you want to go further, say 4 litters, averaging 8 per litter...........!! and thats per dog! People do NOT breed puppies for nothing. Most will breed to keep one for themselves, I totally agree with this, many do not, thats when its for profit alone, couldnt possibly be for any other reason.
Saying that Dawn I agree with you. (sorry people)
Put it this way if there is no money in breeding then why are there some breeders with 9/10 even more breeding bitches? I know of one personally that has so many dogs she has a skip in her garden for all the poo. Of course there is money to be made or people wouldn't do it.
I also found out another thing. If a female pup is born and dies it's still regisered. Then another female has a litter too many and the pups are registered to the dead female. Makes you cringe what goes on.
borderdawn
19-01-2008, 06:09 PM
See, take a "breeder" in my breed. He has 3 bitches, 2 of those bitches have both had 3 litters, the max most show people would breed from a bitch. (2 bitches are litter sisters) He registered 6 puppies in 3 litters, and two 4's and a 5. Thats 31 puppies at £500 each. He kept two to my knowledge thats 29 puppies sold. £14.500!! take out £1000 for rearing etc... £13.500!!! PROFIT!!!
You quote one off fees there Fran of £850 and that was for 2 different dogs. Say 10 puppies at what? 550-600 pounds each, not bad really. If you want to go further, say 4 litters, averaging 8 per litter...........!! and thats per dog! People do NOT breed puppies for nothing. Most will breed to keep one for themselves, I totally agree with this, many do not, thats when its for profit alone, couldnt possibly be for any other reason.
Hang on a minute Dawn, those are only my expenses within the last couple of months, not total expenses. The cost of raising a litter, washing, heat, food, whelping items, vets bills, vet checks on puppies, worming, Frontline, C sections, oxytocin, KC registrations, puppy packs, the list goes on and on Dawn. and where on earth are you getting the figure of £550-600 from :shock: I have never sold a puppy for that amount of money :shock:
Edited to add that I haven't bred a litter for 18 months, is this classed as breeding excessively?
smudgley
19-01-2008, 06:43 PM
If there's one topic that we always fall out over, it's breeding.... I'm keeping out of this one now. ;)
take out £1000 for rearing etc... £13.500!!! PROFIT!!!
I'm sorry Dawn but you must be out of touch, you cannot prepare for, get your girl pregnant and rear a litter for a £1000 :? add to this the outlay before pups come and possible scenario of no pups and you are seriously out of pocket...
borderdawn
19-01-2008, 06:59 PM
Hang on a minute Dawn, those are only my expenses within the last couple of months, not total expenses. The cost of raising a litter, washing, heat, food, whelping items, vets bills, vet checks on puppies, worming, Frontline, C sections, oxytocin, KC registrations, puppy packs, the list goes on and on Dawn. and where on earth are you getting the figure of £550-600 from :shock: I have never sold a puppy for that amount of money :shock:
Edited to add that I haven't bred a litter for 18 months, is this classed as breeding excessively?
Raising a litter? ok.
Food, what £2/300? thats for about 4/5wks?
Oxytocin. Peanuts, you can buy a bottle for £10!
Whelping items. You mean the ones breeders buy for the first time only and usually last a life time anyway? Like whelping boxes, heat lamp etc?
C-sections. Not that often if you want to use the Labrador as an example, MUCH more likely in Border Terriers though.
I have never sold a puppy for that amount of money :shock:
I wasnt quoting you, but Labs do sell for around that amount dont they.
I'm sorry Dawn but you must be out of touch, you cannot prepare for, get your girl pregnant and rear a litter for a £1000 :? add to this the outlay before pups come and possible scenario of no pups and you are seriously out of pocket...
Yes, i agree no pups and you are out of pocket, however this is nOT the object of the exercise is it?;)
Dont worry folks Fran and I know eachother well enough to have a barney and still be friends afterwards.:D
Oxytocin. Peanuts, you can buy a bottle for £10!
I have to pay for a vet consultation and for them to administer it usually out of hours in my case :roll: I can't get hold of it for £10 bottle so if you know where I can then please let me know ;)
Whelping items. You mean the ones breeders buy for the first time only and usually last a life time anyway? Like whelping boxes, heat lamp etc?
Stuff wears out Dawn, for this forthcoming litter, I need new vetbed and I buy the original vetbed not cheap imitations, I need new heat bulbs for my heat lamps, I need varnish for my whelp box... I need new Dopram V drops and the list goes on :roll:
C-sections. Not that often if you want to use the Labrador as an example, MUCH more likely in Border Terriers though.
I've had two C sections Dawn and a friend of mine's lab had a C section and died, she was left to raise the pups. More common than you would think. C Sections are not that common in Meezers (changing the subject here) but out of the 3 litters I have bred, I have had one section. I don't think you can really generalise. Complications in labour can and do happen in every breed of cat and dog.
but Labs do sell for around that amount dont they.
Well if they do, then I need to put my prices up ;)
Yes, i agree no pups and you are out of pocket, however this is nOT the object of the exercise is it?;)
No it's not but you have to be aware that this is a very real possibility, I know someone this happened to very recently.
Dont worry folks Fran and I know eachother well enough to have a barney and still be friends afterwards.:D
Yes that's the most realistic comment you have come out with this evening Dawn ;) :-D
Dawn, I'll retire from posting further. This is after all a cat forum. I think we know each other well enough to know where we both stand with this debate ;)
borderdawn
19-01-2008, 08:03 PM
Dawn, I'll retire from posting further. This is after all a cat forum. I think we know each other well enough to know where we both stand with this debate ;)
Ok Lets have a run down shall we?
I need new vetbed and I buy the original vetbed not cheap imitations, I need new heat bulbs for my heat lamps, I need varnish for my whelp box... I need new Dopram V drops and the list goes on
vetbed, yes, I paid £24 for 2 large pices at LKA in December.
Heat bulb. £7.50.
Varnish? I cannot belive you would include that!:shock:
Dopram V- £8.95 plus VAT £10.50
Travelling (which I personally wouldnt include, but anyway..) £30?
Got the whelping box, got cleaner I would imagine, got the lamp.
Stud fee £400
Obviously cant include feeding mom, she ate before she was pregnant too!:-D
Puppy food. £300?
How are we doing?
Litter registration £12 per pup, say 10 in this litter £120.
Oxytocin jab £20?
Puppy check £50? max!
Puppy packs are free as is the 6 weeks insurance, pedigrees are free too, if you want your own type, then thats a voluntary cost as far as I am concerned.
Total so far £962. 10 pups in the litter, breeder keeps none, Just under £1000 outlay, £4000 profit on pups sold for £500. Am I still way off?
Dawn, this really is my last post as this is a cat forum and seemingly there is only you and I interested in this debate. Regards the Oxytocin jabs. My vets charge £25 before they have even examined the bitch. Out of hours this rises to £80. I always have oxcytocin administered after delivery and this is extra to any that is needed during labour. £20 comes no where near to the final bill I have for these jabs :? Plus which I have vet bills for premate testing and no my vet bill for puppy checks is not as little as £50. It's £15 per pup. I would be really grateful if you would let me know where I could get the Dopram drops that cheap as seriously, I pay a hell of a lot more for them. The thing is Dawn, it's not what each individual item costs, it's the cumulative effect of all these little bits and bobs and bigger bits and bobs. The electric bill following a litter for heating and washing is emense not to mention the wear and tear on the washer and dryer and the wash powder etc. Yes it all seems menial but it does add up! I can honestly tell you that hand on heart, I have never raised a litter for less or anywhere near a £1000 perhaps it's just me, maybe I need to charge more for my pups, maybe I need to cut corners but your figures for rearing a litter really are way off :?
borderdawn
19-01-2008, 08:36 PM
Dawn, this really is my last post as this is a cat forum and seemingly there is only you and I interested in this debate. Regards the Oxytocin jabs. My vets charge £25 before they have even examined the bitch. Out of hours this rises to £80. I always have oxcytocin administered after delivery and this is extra to any that is needed during labour. £20 comes no where near to the final bill I have for these jabs :? Plus which I have vet bills for premate testing and no my vet bill for puppy checks is not as little as £50. It's £15 per pup. I would be really grateful if you would let me know where I could get the Dopram drops that cheap as seriously, I pay a hell of a lot more for them. The thing is Dawn, it's not what each individual item costs, it's the cumulative effect of all these little bits and bobs and bigger bits and bobs. The electric bill following a litter for heating and washing is emense not to mention the wear and tear on the washer and dryer and the wash powder etc. Yes it all seems menial but it does add up! I can honestly tell you that hand on heart, I have never raised a litter for less or anywhere near a £1000 perhaps it's just me, maybe I need to charge more for my pups, maybe I need to cut corners but your figures for rearing a litter really are way off :?
I KNEW you would include washing and electric! Why? What extra washing is there, apart from the vet bed? You are putting costs onto owners that are ridiculous and if you genuinely say you do not breed fro money why dont you (or others) charge an minimum fee of say £60 per pup? Because you have bred them to gain from! Even if I said £2000 to raise a normal litter you wouldnt be happy, even though that would still be 3 grand profit! because you feel its justified, likewise the 5 litters, I dont, thats where we disagree, "using" animals to profit from doesnt figure highly with me and thats what a lot of breeders do. (NOT saying you) I know the GD use their bitches for a specific purpose but still IMO its too much and they are just a usable commodity, a tool to which to gain from. I agree they are cared for beautifully, but when you look at some of the haggered faces and bodies on these poor dogs its awful.
We'll have to agree to disagree. :)
smudgley
19-01-2008, 09:16 PM
deleted post
EmmaG
19-01-2008, 09:41 PM
My mum paid £600 each for her chocolate lab puppies (both boys), they are both KC Registered and come from good quality parents, they are now (I think) 6 years old, so I am not sure what current prices would be.
borderdawn
19-01-2008, 09:51 PM
I'm not joining in.... but just to say on a general note....yes oxytocin is peanuts to buy, but is a very powerful drug & needs to be administered under close supervision of a vet. But if given when there is secondary inertia it can quite easily cause a uterus to contract so much that the uterus can rupture & cause real problems. Not a drug that should be sold to people who are not medically trained.
Bills vary from vet to vet. Some will charge £50 per shot of oxytocin. :shock: I have an itemised bill I can show you for £50 per jab and the bitch was given 3 jabs.:shock:
C/S can vary from £300 up to over £1000.
I have a vet bill awaiting payment for a dog C/S for £1400. Ridiculous but true!
last comment on the subject...... Lab pups are £550 / £600, well the breeders we deal with are charging that.
And that's it from me on this subject.....
THE END! :-D
Ok, I said that was it, but Dawn I think you are being harsh... how do you think GD's should be bred then out of interest? And I think it's unfair to say they have haggered faces. They are kept in tip top condition & are retired at 7yrs, most then go on to live to 14/16yrs.
And how do GD's gain from their dogs? What exactly do GD's gain?
:-D @ Smudgley.
Personally I wouldnt breed more than 3 litters from any bitch I think thats plenty, especially when you consider they have upto 14 pups at a time (I know not every time) but the chosen breeds do have big litters.
I went to a GD fete/show thingy a couple of years ago, it was in aid of GD too. There were loads of brood bitches and ex breeding bitches there and an awful lot of them looked terrible. under carriages on the floor, very very old and tired looking and some of them were still being used. Perhaps it had little to do with being bred from every year for about 5 yrs, but I think it might. Its personal opinion only, many people use dogs in this way and for different reasons. I never said they werent care for either, I said they were cared for beautifully! :D
What do GD get out of it? Well they are running a business. They are an organisation that can afford an awful lot, the very care I was talking of etc... so they must in fact get enough to be able to employ people to run the GD, train the dogs, and pay puppy walkers etc..
If you want to talk about what they hope to achieve, then Id see that differently. I think they'd like to achieve what they already do, providing people with vision difficulties with dogs, that usually totally transform their lives and also give them a loving companion to share their working lives together with.
smudgley
19-01-2008, 10:02 PM
deleted post
tilly
19-01-2008, 10:12 PM
depleted post
random
19-01-2008, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by smudgley http://www.catsey.com/images/catseybuttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.catsey.com/showthread.php?p=453956#post453956)
We are not short at all on bitches Random.
But 4 / 5 litters is what we consider a reasonable number.
Why how many litters do you think they should have. Don't forget they are being bred for a working home, not for the fun of it or for money as lots of litters are.
IMO 2 or 3 litters maximum. Of course I am aware of what they are being bred for but just because they are cared for impeccibly, want for nothing and their pups have the best future imaginable, does not give anyone the right to use them as a breeding a machine. What is wrong with breeding a bitch when she is 2 and 4 and then using a daughter from her first litter who will then be 2 and old enough to breed from when her mum has retired?
If these bitches were not associated with GD a lot of people would see this as puppy farming. Having a litter takes a lot out of a bitch and imo 5 litters, especially with one every single year is a lot.
random
19-01-2008, 10:36 PM
I for one resent the implication that any dog I hope to or will ever own is a usable commodity. and I am truly sorry I ever bother saying anything and I will make sure to keep quite next time.
I would also like to know why you feel the need to be so rude as it is offensive and ruins any enjoyment I might have from coming to catsey.
I am off to delete my original post as I bitterly regret starting it.
sally
Please do not take it to heart Sally it is just a subject that a lot of people have very different views on. No-one is suggesting that you personally are cruel or using any animal as a commodity. There is no need to have your old thread removed, i'm sure you will do a wonderful job with your brood bitch.
borderdawn
19-01-2008, 10:37 PM
ok. :)
Well I don't think letting these bitches have just 3 litters each would be a practical way to run the biggest dog breeding programme in the country {& incidently GDBA has the biggest breeding programme of working dogs in the WORLD}.
Anyway I take on board what you say & I can see where you are coming from, you are interested in the health & welfare of the animals. We know that.
I don't think they look haggered & have undercarriages sagging, {anyway I've had 2 kids & my undercarriage is still rather saggy :-D never done me any harm!}
Anyway, we all love animals & want to see the best for them all, that we DO ALL AGREE ON.
Now lets put this one to bed.
Oh & I think I know you Dawn well enough also to be able to agree to differ on certain things too. ;)
One more thing, puppy walkers aren't paid.:roll:
Their expenses are though, food, bills etc..?
Of course. :)
I for one resent the implication that any dog I hope to or will ever own is a usable commodity. and I am truly sorry I ever bother saying anything and I will make sure to keep quite next time.
I would also like to know why you feel the need to be so rude as it is offensive and ruins any enjoyment I might have from coming to catsey.
I am off to delete my original post as I bitterly regret starting it.
sally
Why? because people happen not to agree on something? Nobody has fallen out here, we differ on opinions that all.:)
We are not short at all on bitches Random.
But 4 / 5 litters is what we consider a reasonable number.
Why how many litters do you think they should have. Don't forget they are being bred for a working home, not for the fun of it or for money as lots of litters are.
IMO 2 or 3 litters maximum. Of course I am aware of what they are being bred for but just because they are cared for impeccibly, want for nothing and their pups have the best future imaginable, does not give anyone the right to use them as a breeding a machine. What is wrong with breeding a bitch when she is 2 and 4 and then using a daughter from her first litter who will then be 2 and old enough to breed from when her mum has retired?
If these bitches were not associated with GD a lot of people would see this as puppy farming. Having a litter takes a lot out of a bitch and imo 5 litters, especially with one every single year is a lot.
Exactly Random, if these dogs were in a "kennel" situation it would be seen as farming.
tilly
19-01-2008, 10:43 PM
deleted post
smudgley
19-01-2008, 10:48 PM
deleted post
smudgley
19-01-2008, 11:14 PM
Have deleted my posts as I really shouldn't be discussing this on here like this.
However you can see what I said as per quotes stated.
My mum paid £600 each for her chocolate lab puppies (both boys), :shock: :shock: :shock:
I really must put my prices up ;)
EmmaG
20-01-2008, 12:19 AM
lol well perhaps you should Fran :) That was the going rate for lab pups at the time (in Essex/Cambridgeshire), I would have thought now they would be even higher??
lol well perhaps you should Fran :) That was the going rate for lab pups at the time (in Essex/Cambridgeshire), I would have thought now they would be even higher??
Yes, I think they are more expensive down south, it's the same with Siamese kittens too :)
Elaine
20-01-2008, 11:13 AM
I for one have really enjoyed this debate and was very interested to read what every one has had to say.
Tilly, dont get so upset by it all, no one is slurring you, breeding is and always will be a very emotive topic and one which many of us will never agree on, that doesnt mean that the debate should not go on how ever.
A very interesting post very much along the lines I have come to expect on Catsey when breeding is involved. I am not really going to add anything except for one thing. Dawn, Show people are not always what they seem they falsify papers by registering more pups than are really born and then buying in unregistered ones and selling them for a dearer price, many do let their girls have more than 2-3 litters, they are magically able to use stud dogs that have died, and as Jac has already mentioned they register puppies under different girls. The worse thing I have known dog show people do in their eagerness to make up their girls is to let them have a litter and then take them away from their pups at a very early age and hand rear them with no consideration for the pups wellbeing, just so they can get mum back in the show ring.
Oh and I do have experience of the dog show world, albeit past experience, as an exhibitor, breeder and a steward. Having said all that their are good breeders who show as well.
borderdawn
24-02-2008, 06:54 PM
Everything you have said goes on in Cat showing too Kay. :) Unfortunatley there is no reccommendations for how many litters Cats should have, even the GCCF guide saying a Cat must be over 12mth before mating is often ignored, and babies are bred from. There is no upper limit either, unlike with Dogs now, so Cats actually have a far rougher ride in many instances.
smudgley
24-02-2008, 09:35 PM
did we have to drag this up again? sorry, just thinking out loud ;)
did we have to drag this up again? sorry, just thinking out loud ;)
Ditto big time....
borderdawn
24-02-2008, 11:53 PM
I didnt!!!!
dinahsmum
25-02-2008, 01:32 PM
Not again :roll:
It always causes bad feeling on Catsey - fgs, leave it alone, and especially don't resurrect a month old thread - it's like picking at a scab! :evil:
dandysmom
25-02-2008, 05:06 PM
Amen, DM! Give it a rest!
borderdawn
25-02-2008, 09:56 PM
Ill say AGAIN, I DIDNT !!!! Kay directed HER post at ME, I responded! :roll: :roll: :roll:
smudgley
25-02-2008, 10:02 PM
noone said you did... did they? :?
dandysmom
25-02-2008, 10:04 PM
I know that, Dawn! This is in hopes that no one will resurrect it again.......not accusing you at all!
Let's allow this thread to rest now ladies, as has been said, it should never have been resurrected....
Not again :roll:
It always causes bad feeling on Catsey - fgs, leave it alone, and especially don't resurrect a month old thread - it's like picking at a scab! :evil:
I think that some of us regulars who do seem to spend quite a lot of time here each and every day forget that some members spend a more limited amount of time on here and hence it takes a while for them to catch up on threads/posts.
I'm not supporting or unsupporting the resurrection of this thread just pointing out why sometimes threads are resurrected :)
smudgley
26-02-2008, 10:55 PM
That is a good point Fran. :)
I am sorry Dawn I was not getting at you after all everyone on Catsey is entitled to their opinion. It just narked me a bit that you seem to think show people are so good and breeders aren't and just wanted to point out just what does go on in the dog show world. I am not naive enough to believe it doesn't go on in the cat world but this post was about dogs.
As for everyone else that posted about me resurrecting the post to cause trouble in effect. I didn't notice it was a month old and I had no idea what the original thread was about. As Fran says not everyone can be on here every day and I am one of those people. I was just catching up.
smudgley
27-02-2008, 09:05 AM
well I better post something as I was the first person to say anything. :roll:
I saw the thread had new posts in it & just literally thought "oh no" so I whispered it on the thread in small letters. That's all. nothing personal. Just thought the whole thread was uncomfortable (for me personally anyway) and although I have lots of things I want to say about the subject and some of the ridiculous comments made, I feel I can't as I have to remain proffessional, therefore I got quite frustrated over the thread before. :mad:
that's all. :roll:
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