View Full Version : Free range or not?
Has anyone a point of view either way on the "debate" at the moment that appears to be going on about I suppose what could be called the the 'morals' of eating free range or intensive chicken farming.
Whilst I agree, wholeheartedly, that 'Free-Range' meat - whether chicken, Pork or whatever - not only tastes better, but it is immensely satisfying to see that the animals in question have at least been given a 'decent quality of life' before their inevitable slaughter.
The problem remains, though, that 'Free Range' meat is so much more expensive - especially when, as most of us in the world are on a very budget.
Should we buy the 2 for £5 chickens, as opposed to the Free Range birds which can cost in excess of £7 each and if we buy the 2 for £5 (type of bird) should we be made to feel guilty?
Please can I say here this is for your own personal view point and your viewpoint in most cases comes from your budget....We have to live within our budgets and feeding my family is the most important.
dinahsmum
12-01-2008, 11:51 AM
Eat less, but better, animal products.
The world cannot sustain every human eating their own weight in meat/meat products/fish/dairy/eggs every week.
We all eat way too much anyway, so eat more veg, good bread etc and much less animal. You don't need food of animal origin every day - if at all.
There you go - there's one way. Save the world and improve your own wellbeing
To be honest Kazz I dont know whether the chicken I buy is free range or not:oops:
I buy all my meat and chicken from the market. It's fantastic quality but the boy buy's from the slaughter house. Butchers it and sells it on fresh. There is no middle man so I can buy cuts I wouldn't be able to afford in the shops. Like steaks, big lumps of roasts and chicken breasts to die for. Much thicker and bigger than in the shops.
Donna
12-01-2008, 01:44 PM
I buy the 2 for £5 type of chicken. I cannot afford anything else. My supermarket dont actually stock free range food. I enjoy meat and eat it everyday and will not stop. Still eat veg and stuff, but it accompanies the meat.
No-one should feel in any way guilty over the choices they make! These choices are guided by personal preferences and circumstances.
I buy free-range, organic when I can, but I accept that I'm lucky in being able to have a choice. Having said that, I don't have meat every day, I was brought up to regard it as a bit of a luxury and it suits my life-style to continue to think in this way.
babycakes
12-01-2008, 03:44 PM
I totally oppose the intensive farming of ay animal and free range is the only option for me. (and it looks cleaner and tastes better) maybe because you know you have done the right thing. However I agree not everyone can afford to pay for it. However if intensive farming was abolished Free range would have to compete and this would lower the prices so by highlighting the issues so everyone can make an informed choice more people would choose not to eat it and this would let the horrible cruelty die out.
DM has summed up exactly my opinion. Even when I was out of work, and had time on my hands, I would scour shops and supermarkets for special deals on higher quality meats rather than going for special offers - you don't get owt for nowt, depsite what the supermarkets say!
I know there is the eternal quandry of time vs money and there are many people who are short on both, so there is no easy answer and no solution that will work universally.
Putting the ethics of free range/organic to one side, bit by bit we as a nation need to step back and consider what we are pumping our bodies full of . . . the alarming rise in behavioural issues is already being strongly linked to additivies in low cost food, and this isn't just colourants and flavourings it is also the extremely high levels of antibiotics present in intensively-reared livestock/poultry.
I will cook vegetarian meals usually twice a week, once might be with some kind of meat subistitute such as quorn which is actually OK in stirfrys and similar. I will also cook fish about twice a week, some kind of white fish once and also a prawn-base meal. The rest is chicken and occasionally red meat. And I really DO try and cook too, rather than warm up in a microwave . . . if you've made the effort to cook it you really are less likely to waste it!
Where possible I will buy free range, and Waitrose do organic meatballs various minces that are actually not hugely more expensive then the ordinary variety. However, I would rather do without that buy the really, really cheapest meat that is offered - I'll sacrifice other non-essentials in order to spend a little more on good quality meat.
Having said that, today we made the decision that we will buy all our future meat and fish from the town's butcher and fishmonger! We'll see how that works out.
angieh
12-01-2008, 05:07 PM
I totally oppose the intensive farming of ay animal and free range is the only option for me. (and it looks cleaner and tastes better) maybe because you know you have done the right thing. However I agree not everyone can afford to pay for it. However if intensive farming was abolished Free range would have to compete and this would lower the prices so by highlighting the issues so everyone can make an informed choice more people would choose not to eat it and this would let the horrible cruelty die out.
I really hope that this works, but will it work quickly enough? Quite apart from people in this country on very tight budgets, what about people in other countries living well below the poverty line - intensively reared poultry is probably one of the cheapest foods that can be bought.
Personally, I have bought the 2 for £5 type chicken from supermarkets in the past but have decided not to do so in the future. My dilemma is rather about so called barn-reared birds (the ones not so crowded that have straw etc.) How are their conditions monitored? I bought a barn chicken for Christmas and it was delicious!
I do think that these products must be more clearly labeled so that people can make their own decisions based on clear and correct information.
I did want to add, there IS a lot of ambiguity with labelling, and also with the definition of free range. In some cases, an animal need only spend only a small percentage of it's existence outdoors, usually toward the end of its life, in order to qualify for status of free range. Which does kind of make a mockery of the whole thing really :(
dandysmom
12-01-2008, 05:49 PM
I agree that the choice can be determined by your budget. I'm fortunate that I only cook for myself and can afford to buy organic, which I do, both for ethical reasons and quality. That said, I'm not vegetarian, but do cook vegetarian dishes frequently. and eat very little red meat, mostly fish, prawns and chicken. Also, I'm a big fan of Chinese/Japanese cooking, which are primarily vegetable based with meat being an accent rather than the main ingredient. I avoid processed foods like the plague, God knows what all those weird ingredients/additives are doing to our bodies!
having worked in a place that reared 60/70 thousand chickens and seen the hormone feed used to make them grow faster and antibiotices used in the water to keep disease down I would never buy intensively reared chicken no matter how cheap they were ...
I don't think the meat we get is organic, I know it's locally sourced. Raised in farms quite local, and slaughtered in the same area so less stress with travelling. And then most game; rabbit/pheasant etc is either caught by myself or other relatives.
I do think it's very unfair to make people feel bad for not being able to afford organic food though tbf.
It is so difficult. I totally agree with free range and organic and buy this whenever I can. I always buy free range eggs. However, I simply cannot afford to buy free range chickens and other meat all the time, although I did make an exception and bought free range turkeys for Christmas. I cook a lot of meat free meals, my son and daughter are both vegetarian, so we use quite a bit of quorn and otjher meat substitutes.
dandysmom
12-01-2008, 09:07 PM
I don't think the meat we get is organic, I know it's locally sourced. Raised in farms quite local, and slaughtered in the same area so less stress with travelling. And then most game; rabbit/pheasant etc is either caught by myself or other relatives.
I do think it's very unfair to make people feel bad for not being able to afford organic food though tbf.
Luke, there was no intent on my part to make people feel bad about their choices; I didn't mean that and am sure no one else did either!
You're lucky to be able to get locally raised/grown products ...our Whole Foods market uses produce/meats from within roughly 100 miles whenever possible......locally grown is very big here....
babycakes
12-01-2008, 09:39 PM
I must admit I always bought cheap chickens but then I don't eat meat so it didn't bother me but I saw River Cottage and it put me off. OH noticed a difference in the taste and I noticed a difference in the colour of the chicken when cooked. However it is a personal decision affected by budget. They can mass produce cos there is a demand for it, (I think I may be wrong) but I can't justify the cruelty once I knew about how many die in those conditions not even eaten and the chemical pumped into them must do us some harm?? As I say that's my opinion only
borderdawn
12-01-2008, 10:34 PM
I rarely buy chicken but when I do, I get free range or organic. I do buy the cooked chicken which Im sure is "standard" for the Cats. I never buy Danish Pork, always British and never buy anything other than organic Beef and NEVER Argentinian! Free range eggs every time.
I think people should be allowed to choose, but I honestly felt sick at the disgusting crap in some of those "meals." Providing people are fully aware of where their food has come from and how it was reared, they should be able to make their own choices based on their own feelings and financies, and shouldnt be judged for doing so.
Dawn.
I would never eat anything that has suffered so much:( I don't understand how people can ever justify that.
Yuk scabby Chickens :shock: 2 for a fiver I would not want them for free.
The meat taste awful looks Awful and is full of crap:shock:
When I was short of money(still am sometimes) I ate less meat or waited until the free range had a reduced sticker on it:D
babycakes
12-01-2008, 10:51 PM
I rarely buy chicken but when I do, I get free range or organic. I do buy the cooked chicken which Im sure is "standard" for the Cats. I never buy Danish Pork, always British and never buy anything other than organic Beef and NEVER Argentinian! Free range eggs every time.
I think people should be allowed to choose, but I honestly felt sick at the disgusting crap in some of those "meals." Providing people are fully aware of where their food has come from and how it was reared, they should be able to make their own choices based on their own feelings and financies, and shouldnt be judged for doing so.
Dawn.
I must admit I try to buy British everything now if I can. Fruit and veg is also mass produced and tastes of water not what it should taste of unless you buy locally grown
smudgley
12-01-2008, 11:47 PM
I always get free range eggs, I even have to walk down the garden to get them out of the nest boxes. :roll:
Here are my girls
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/smudgley2/b26890ad.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/smudgley2/62bf6356.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/smudgley2/e9c3a455.jpg
dandysmom
12-01-2008, 11:51 PM
What lovely chooks! Nice to see them......
smudgley
12-01-2008, 11:54 PM
What lovely chooks! Nice to see them......
thankyou.
I think everyone should have a couple of chooks for their own eggs.
borderdawn
13-01-2008, 12:01 AM
There wouldnt be any "chook" for long here!! They would have to be caged to survive!! :mrgreen:
babycakes
13-01-2008, 12:02 AM
Do you know I have always thought about it and OH is very interrested... May plug you for info on this..I buy from a guy in work who has his own chucks
dandysmom
13-01-2008, 12:36 AM
thankyou.
I think everyone should have a couple of chooks for their own eggs.
I would dearly love to, even though I still have memories of being pecked by my grandma's while gathering eggs, but it is illegal here in the City... :(
I must confess I hardly ever eat eggs. I even have to put them in the bin at times as they have gone out of date. I do buy free range though.
smudgley
13-01-2008, 11:44 AM
Do you know I have always thought about it and OH is very interrested... May plug you for info on this..I buy from a guy in work who has his own chucks
They are good fun.
You have to be careful that they have a fox proof enclosure. We did loose 7 to foxes once, but that was because my daughter had locked them out of the run when she got the eggs. They are really low maintenance & all have their own personalities.
Donna
13-01-2008, 12:39 PM
Another thought....
all you free range fans - have you thought about the meat that is used in your cat food? If you are against mass chicken production and religiously buy free range and organic.. you must know you are still buying into the mass production market with your pet food?
Not wishing to insult anyone's intelligence or cause a riot, but it is just another angle in this debate.
borderdawn
13-01-2008, 12:55 PM
Another thought....
all you free range fans - have you thought about the meat that is used in your cat food? If you are against mass chicken production and religiously buy free range and organic.. you must know you are still buying into the mass production market with your pet food?
Not wishing to insult anyone's intelligence or cause a riot, but it is just another angle in this debate.
As I said I buy cheap chicken for the Cats, well I assume its "standard" its the ones they cook on the spit in the store.
I wouldnt class my animals in the same class as me Donna. I wouldnt eat a piece of tripe but my dogs would, yet bleached, its suitable for human consumption. I also dont eat liver, I call that dog food too!
I am not about to start purchasing organic food for my pets (although the dog food is human class raw) 95% of cat and dog food is sourced from food NOT suitable for human consumption, so there isnt really much you can do about that!
Donna
13-01-2008, 02:03 PM
As I said I buy cheap chicken for the Cats, well I assume its "standard" its the ones they cook on the spit in the store.
I wouldnt class my animals in the same class as me Donna. I wouldnt eat a piece of tripe but my dogs would, yet bleached, its suitable for human consumption. I also dont eat liver, I call that dog food too!
I am not about to start purchasing organic food for my pets (although the dog food is human class raw) 95% of cat and dog food is sourced from food NOT suitable for human consumption, so there isnt really much you can do about that!
Quite agree we shouldnt buy free range for our pets Dawn.
They get their own free range with the birds and mice they catch :lol: or in my case worms :roll: .
BUT if you are making a stance against buying the mass produced stuff... are you aware its in your pet food....
borderdawn
13-01-2008, 03:18 PM
I see your point Donna, and yes I am aware of it. Animal feed wont change for a long long time, but I dont see them as needing to eat organic stuff like I do, as they are animals.
It is much easier for us to buy free range organic food, but this is a much harder option when it comes to pet food! I struggle to buy pet food free from 'animal derivatives' as it is!
dandysmom
13-01-2008, 05:29 PM
I tried to get Leia to eat the organic food in tins from Whole Foods but she hates it! So, it's the commercial stuff for her. And, DM I share your feelings toward tripe and liver! :-D
Donna
13-01-2008, 06:06 PM
It really depends on WHY you chose to buy free range.
1. Is it because you cant stand the suffering of intensive farmed animals and therefore an animal welfare issue.
or
2. Is it because you feel you are eating better foods by buying free range so not an animal welfare issue.
babycakes
13-01-2008, 06:34 PM
It really depends on WHY you chose to buy free range.
1. Is it because you cant stand the suffering of intensive farmed animals and therefore an animal welfare issue.
or
2. Is it because you feel you are eating better foods by buying free range so not an animal welfare issue.
Can't it be the two??? I think we all have to take some small steps to a better world and won't conquer it in a day. So every little change you do make will go towards helping so those who don't buy intense farmed animals to eat can do so knowing that they are having a go and can make other changes as we go on.
borderdawn
13-01-2008, 06:42 PM
It really depends on WHY you chose to buy free range.
1. Is it because you cant stand the suffering of intensive farmed animals and therefore an animal welfare issue.
or
2. Is it because you feel you are eating better foods by buying free range so not an animal welfare issue.
Both really. I think any animal should be able to live to a reasonable standard, and I also dont want to eat food from chickens that have had their hocks burned to the bone because of poor living standards.
dandysmom
13-01-2008, 08:57 PM
It's not an either-or IMO, but both.
Yes, definitely both for me and most I would imagine.I think babycakes is right, we need to take small steps for a better world.
Me too - both are equally important considerations, we own it to ourselves and to those whose lives we have control over (the animals we eat).
I think we should all be vegetarian :lol:
northern lass
15-01-2008, 11:28 PM
Having visited an intensive pig farm and studied environmetal pollution which included intensive farming and the use of one animals faeces in anothers food to increase profit I am whole heartedly behind the campaign for free range and where ever possible organic meat.
I understand that people are on a tight budget (I am a single mum of two !) - but the only reason intensive farming exists is to make a profit, there is no priority for health or welfare of the "product".
We have free range organic meat ocasionally and get at least 2 or 3 meals form a Sunday joint - so cost wise I think it pays for it's self.
trouble is now I am looking at what the cats are eating and am uncomfortable knowing that the bulk of the meat in their food is intensivly farmed :cry:
We live in a free country (a debat for another day ;) ) and we can make our own decisions, the important thing is that they are informed decisions ! - right I will get off the soap box now. :)
babycakes
15-01-2008, 11:50 PM
One of the top stories on the news tonight was Jamie Olivers war on free range eggs. As a result Wirral council has declared that they will be banning all eggs that are not free range. This means in their schools, cafes and restuarants (not sure if it's shops). But good on them I say and what a start. They claim they are big business (one council) and will make a difference so imagine what everyone could do if we just started with eggs?
Steph
23-01-2008, 03:48 PM
I`m lucky enough to be able to make a choice. I will buy `barn raised`from my local butcher as they do have some space but maybe not `free range` whatever that means.
I have heard customers say that they do not want free range as "you don`t know where they have been eating"
I wonder if the same people buy pheasant from the same shop?
It`s not easy-outdoor raised pigs have more fat on them and I like that as they have more flavour. On the other hand others encourage us to eat lean meat
dandysmom
23-01-2008, 05:12 PM
If people started worrying about what the things we eat have been eating, then no one would eat crab, lobster and other delicious tasting scavengers!
Oh Eileen, I never eat crab and lobster as I think the way they are cooked (i.e. boiled alive) is just too cruel for words. :(
random
24-01-2008, 12:31 AM
There wouldnt be any "chook" for long here!! They would have to be caged to survive!! :mrgreen:
Same here, it's a shame as I cannot think of anything more yummy than fresh eggs every morning!
I always buy free range and british but then it is only for my and my son, I do not need 2 for £5, even with one the dogs and cats end up with half of it. So on that note it is not so bad price wise but I can understand those of bigger families wanting 2 for £5. My father will buy a cheap ready cooked one when he cooks for us all and you really can taste the difference. I tend to slip it under the table for the dogs! :roll: I am sitting him down and making him watch the current debates so watch this space, I may well talk him round yet!
I firmly believe that if we all went free range, the cheapy ones then wouldn't sell and so would have to go up in price so as profits were not lost, the more they didn't sell the more they loose profits and the higher the prices would go 'til eventually free range is actually cheaper. With more free range selling at the same time they would come right down in price and the tables would be turned. I still live in hope that this will happen.
Samz5
07-02-2008, 06:10 PM
Here there is just me and my b/f to feed, he's vegi so I usually don't eat much meat anyway. I've always eaten free range & organic eggs and meat, since the extra cost doesn't really matter with just feeding me.
I would rather eat free range because I don't believe the cheap chickens are as healthy or nutritious.
Tesco have now dropped the price of their 2 for £5 chickens to £1.99 each... it got me thinking, maybe I should buy these cheap chickens to feed the cats, the 5 of them get through around 10-12 pouches of whiskers a day + dry food (Hills). I have to keep the dry food as its keeping Tango alive with his medical condition, but the whiskers costs around £2.50 - £3.00 for 12 pouches and is made from rubbish meat really, I could mix it 50/50 with real chicken at those prices and probably be better off financially!!
babycakes
07-02-2008, 06:41 PM
I have noticed in Asda, Morrisons and Tescos there is no free range chickens available and hasn't been for some weeks. When I asked Morrisons staff they said they have stopped ordering it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think this is to make us buy what is available rather then having a choice and I will be complaining to each of the stores for taking my choice away
I tried to get a free range chicken in Tescos, but they didn't have any. I'm afraid I wont buy the £1.99 chickens on principal. Anyway, have been thinking about this for ages and so just over a week ago I decided to become a vegetarian. Haven't really missed meat at all. I am going to try and give up cows milk too and have bought some soya milk and yogurts. I was watching a programme last week and they said that to produce enough milk they have to make the cows get pregnant every year. The calves are surplus to requirements so many are shot at about 2 weeks old. Hence my reason for giving up the cows milk.
Alan77
01-04-2008, 08:14 AM
All farming is there to make a profit. It's an industry, like any other. The fact is that farmers need to make a living. Then again, I eat rabbits and they're all free range.
It's probably just as well that there are birds reared inside, because every time there's an outbreak of bird flu or some other avian disease, Defra are on their way round to wipe out everything that isn't locked up.
nursecroft
13-04-2008, 05:17 PM
All farming is there to make a profit. It's an industry, like any other. The fact is that farmers need to make a living. Then again, I eat rabbits and they're all free range.
It's probably just as well that there are birds reared inside, because every time there's an outbreak of bird flu or some other avian disease, Defra are on their way round to wipe out everything that isn't locked up.
If they are locked up they are literally on top of each other! Pooing on eachother and lying in their own faeces, thats not disease free. Bird flu can still be spread to birds inside.
As for the debate i could not touch an industrial chicken, im not well off and have to count the pennies, i personally believe a healthy diet is one of the most important things and if you can eat those awful fatty birds stuffed with artificial rubbish well i think you're mad! I would not feed them to my cat! You get much more for your money with a free range bird, these cheap birds are full of water, no-where near as fleshy. I wont even start on the welfare issues.
just my opinion though :D
Classic Tabby
13-04-2008, 05:49 PM
I earn about £120 a week and I will only buy freerange/organic meat etc. As has been said you just eat les of it, which for me as a carnivore has been a big step to take but I can't buy cheapie meat as I know what awful conditions the poor animals are raised in!
Also the taste is different. Cheap does not usually = taste!
Becky
Alan77
13-04-2008, 07:14 PM
If they are locked up they are literally on top of each other! Pooing on eachother and lying in their own faeces, thats not disease free. Bird flu can still be spread to birds inside.
As for the debate i could not touch an industrial chicken, im not well off and have to count the pennies, i personally believe a healthy diet is one of the most important things and if you can eat those awful fatty birds stuffed with artificial rubbish well i think you're mad! I would not feed them to my cat! You get much more for your money with a free range bird, these cheap birds are full of water, no-where near as fleshy. I wont even start on the welfare issues.
just my opinion though :D
They taste just fine to me! Most of this 'organic/free range' labelling is a promotional scam IMO. About as organic as a nylon coat! It's like vegetarians, where there are about 24 different types. "I'm a vegetarian, but I eat fish".
What did fish do to inspire such hatred in vegetarians? ;)
nursecroft
13-04-2008, 07:56 PM
They are not scam, that would be fraud! If they taste good to you then you obviously dont appreciate good food. Its got nothing to do wth being vegetarian i have no idea how you brought that into this. I am a country girl and a realist when it comes to animals and farming. Intensive battery farming is cruel and unnecessary for the sake of an extra couple of pounds. You get more good quality meat for your money.
As for fish and vegetarians well thats a whole other debate :roll: :smt101
dandysmom
13-04-2008, 08:05 PM
Alan, I'm afraid I disagree with you about organic being a scam. Here in the States to be certified Organic farmers have to undergo rigorous inspections to met the standards and get the seal; am sure it must be similar in the UK. And I'm sorry that you are unable to tell the difference between free range and battery chickens.
nursecroft
13-04-2008, 08:08 PM
Alan, I'm afraid I disagree with you about organic being a scam. Here in the States to be certified Organic farmers have to undergo rigorous inspections to met the standards and get the seal; am sure it must be similar in the UK. And I'm sorry that you are unable to tell the difference between free range and battery chickens.
Yep same in the UK and completely agree
They are not scam, that would be fraud! If they taste good to you then you obviously dont appreciate good food. Its got nothing to do wth being vegetarian i have no idea how you brought that into this. I am a country girl and a realist when it comes to animals and farming. Intensive battery farming is cruel and unnecessary for the sake of an extra couple of pounds. You get more good quality meat for your money.
As for fish and vegetarians well thats a whole other debate :roll: :smt101
Good post, well said, I completely agree with you.
I am vegetarian now, amd will only buy free range eggs and organic wherever possible. I buy free range chickens for my OH (both my children are also vegetarians). I think battery farming is appalling, so is dairy farming, but that's another topic. I try and use soya milk as much as possible too.
dandysmom
13-04-2008, 09:02 PM
I'm not vegetarian, but eat very little red meat: primarily fish and chicken, although I do love ham, bacon and meat balls; buy only the naturally cured bacon without nitrites/nitrates. The non-organic beef and chicken are loaded with yuck like antibiotics and growth hormones which are getting into the ecosystem as well as our bodies. The waterways have all sorts of toxic substances, and male fish right here in the Potomac are producing eggs because their endocrine systems are messed up....
Alan77
14-04-2008, 12:18 PM
Alan, I'm afraid I disagree with you about organic being a scam. Here in the States to be certified Organic farmers have to undergo rigorous inspections to met the standards and get the seal; am sure it must be similar in the UK. And I'm sorry that you are unable to tell the difference between free range and battery chickens.
Don't be sorry, dandysmom, I'm not. The labeling of products has already been shown to be a scam in the UK, several times:
"Sorting the truth from the lies is very difficult, and certainly not something the consumer can do. It's usually the job of Trading Standards Officers, who have to follow a paper trail to fully determine the origin of the food. That takes time and money - it's often more expensive to prosecute someone than the fine they'll have to pay.
But with a growing number of organic producers (there were some 4000 in 2004), the policing becomes harder, especially if retailers misrepresent produce. Add in some 500 farmers' markets and all the box schemes around the country, and it becomes exceedingly difficult. On top of that, more than half of the organic food sold in Britain comes from abroad."
More here: http://www.safefromscams.co.uk/OrganicFoodScam.html
nursecroft
14-04-2008, 04:35 PM
Don't be sorry, dandysmom, I'm not. The labeling of products has already been shown to be a scam in the UK, several times:
"Sorting the truth from the lies is very difficult, and certainly not something the consumer can do. It's usually the job of Trading Standards Officers, who have to follow a paper trail to fully determine the origin of the food. That takes time and money - it's often more expensive to prosecute someone than the fine they'll have to pay.
But with a growing number of organic producers (there were some 4000 in 2004), the policing becomes harder, especially if retailers misrepresent produce. Add in some 500 farmers' markets and all the box schemes around the country, and it becomes exceedingly difficult. On top of that, more than half of the organic food sold in Britain comes from abroad."
More here: http://www.safefromscams.co.uk/OrganicFoodScam.html
You're missing the point, we are not talking about organic we are talking about free range, very big difference!!
Alan77
14-04-2008, 07:02 PM
Same goes for both, IMO. On TV recently, a test was done where organic tomatoes were tested against a non-organic tomatoes and there was no definitive proof that anyone could actually tell the difference.
I've bought and used both and I couldn't tell the difference. Same goes for free-range. I'm convinced most people find it tastes different because they want it to.
As regards free-range, that can be 3 hours a day outside. I used to go regularly to a farm where they had free-range turkeys. That never went outside. I'm not knocking you for trying to be positive, but it doesn't work as simply as people would like it to.
Not only would you not have the land in this country to split between cereals (for both bio-fuels and general consumption), vegetables crops, free range poultry, cattle, etc. It'll never happen (again IMO, because that's all it is).
Then there's the issue of what it costs the farmers to produce animals in this environment. Another farmer I know very well is always in debt. He certainly doesn't make much, so he has to get by on what he can. Whereas ideally, the answer would be that the customer just pays a bit more, in most cases, the supermarkets skim as much as they can, so for all the extra work the farmer puts in, he stills gets the same rate as he got before.
This is because after producing animals to this standard, the farmers are left with the option of competing with imported chicken (from Poland, for example), where there's isn't going to sell, or getting in the supermarkets, who (excuse the pun) want their pound of flesh.
nursecroft
14-04-2008, 07:19 PM
Same goes for both, IMO. On TV recently, a test was done where organic tomatoes were tested against a non-organic tomatoes and there was no definitive proof that anyone could actually tell the difference.
I've bought and used both and I couldn't tell the difference. Same goes for free-range. I'm convinced most people find it tastes different because they want it to.
As regards free-range, that can be 3 hours a day outside. I used to go regularly to a farm where they had free-range turkeys. That never went outside. I'm not knocking you for trying to be positive, but it doesn't work as simply as people would like it to.
Not only would you not have the land in this country to split between cereals (for both bio-fuels and general consumption), vegetables crops, free range poultry, cattle, etc. It'll never happen (again IMO, because that's all it is).
Well i live in the country and know of lots of free range farmers and have never seen them shut up in the way intensive farmed chickens are. They have much more room in the barns and 3 hours outside is better than none however the ones i have SEEN go out all day. Did you watch Hugh's chicken run? He produced two lots of chickens using both methods and show what each are given in regards to space and mental enrichment. These are regulated and the farms are inspected.
As for land thats ridiculous, there is so much land sitting there not being used, if people bough free range and farmers could make money out of it they would use that space.
Alan77
14-04-2008, 07:32 PM
Well, we'll have to agree to differ. I live in the country, too. I see things you clearly don't and vice versa.
I'll leave this thread, now...maybe I'll come back when I've a sense of taste that's as highly developed as yours.
nursecroft
14-04-2008, 07:40 PM
You are the first person i have ever spoken to that cant tell the difference between the meaty good quality chicken and the watery fatty industrially reared ones.
Lets not forget the animal welfare issue, if you think its ok for those poor chickens to be crammed in a barn, to trample over eachother, poo on eachother then i think thats very sad. Alot of those chickens die way before they are ready to be slaughtered in horrible ways in disgusting conditions, its absolutely disgraceful and more importantly CRUEL.
I'll stick to my side of the country and feel happy that i dont support the pockets of those that choose to farm animals in that way. I know exactly where i get my chicken from, certainly isnt any supermarkets.
dandysmom
14-04-2008, 07:47 PM
Well said, NC!!!
Yes definely NC, I am with you all the way, excellent post.
We recently stayed in the New Forest visiting a relative and I bought some free range eggs from a farm. My son (and he's only 20) cooked some of the eggs, and could tell the difference straightaway and he didn't even know I had bought any eggs! There is a massive difference between good quality free range eggs & meat, as NC says. I think it is sad if your taste buds can't tell the difference. However, for me, the animal welfare issue is far more important.
Donna
15-04-2008, 03:52 PM
You are the first person i have ever spoken to that cant tell the difference between the meaty good quality chicken and the watery fatty industrially reared ones.
I cant taste any difference either :?
nursecroft
09-05-2008, 07:53 AM
Donna!! How can you not taste the difference it amazes me! There is so much more meat on a free range chicken from a farm shop than crappy 2 of a fiver intensively farmed unhealthy chickens stuffed with chemicals.
If you cant taste the difference or even see the difference the animal welfare issue should be enough not to want to buy those hideously abused birds.
Sweeney Todd
09-05-2008, 12:11 PM
It's not just chickens that are full of rubbish....I would go mad if mummsy bought meat from a supermarket, It's full of water, chemicals and dye.....
You can tel the difference with any meat, or fish if you by it from a farm shop
nursecroft
09-05-2008, 12:16 PM
Yes i agree, its all rubbish but i think chickens and rabbits are particulary badly treated.
Sweeney Todd
09-05-2008, 12:35 PM
Is this the first time we've agreed with each other
:cat37
nursecroft
09-05-2008, 05:31 PM
:cat37 :cat36 :smt018
Yes I think so ST ;) :cat21
Sweeney Todd
09-05-2008, 06:59 PM
I knew i wouldn't get away with the cat having a cig..:cat24 :bighug:
Marigold7
18-09-2013, 11:40 AM
Interesting debate; thank you.
I honestly never tell the difference either; I don' t find the chickens from the supermarket fatty either... But maybe regs are different here in Ireland. Certainly regs got tightened up after the horse meat affair here.
For me as a pensioner it is cost and the cost here of organic is very high. I stopped bothering with meat due to cost and very occasionally buy eg liver if it is in the reduced section at Tesco. Fish is beyond my reach. Coffee and toast and cereals are great food!
Oh I also have M.E Long term and many food issues with that
Way back I was self sufficient; hens, a goat etc and I still grow my own veg etc
It is not that I do not care but that these are thing I can do nothing about and I have to eat and feed my cats and dogs and I hate pet food junk
Yesterday I got a 1.5 chicken, reduced in Tesco for under E4; cats and dogs get legs wings and carcase raw and I will fry the breast meat and make soup also with some. I did not read the label. Here a free range bird will be around E14 and the price difference re eggs is as bad
Uh oh; riot downstairs as collie has seen CAT
Marigold7
18-09-2013, 03:43 PM
Please do not think I do not care; just is that there is nothing I or anyone else can d until and unless the law is changed and no amount of shunning by a few will sort that. On one forum I got attacked for saying that I took in ex-battery birds as that was condemned as supporting the batteries
So rather than be horrified at those of us who cannot tell the difference and cannot afford to buy free range lobby the govt etc
It is however not viable to have food for all without some form if intensive farming.
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