View Full Version : New mum... not doing so well
me_shell
16-09-2007, 05:43 PM
I have a siamese new mum who had a litter of three yesterday... She is really pleased with them but is acting totally clueless when it comes to feeding them. We have placed them on her but the milk doesnt seem to be flowing. We are trying to bottle feed the kittens today but they are really unhappy about feeding from a bottle & its near impossible... Im getting really worried now as they have to get feeding properly.
(We have had 2 litters of siamese kittens from our other queen but never had this problem before as she was a natural & fantastic mother from the moment they where born.)
Any advice would be gladly recieved!
Hello and Welcome to Catsey. So sorry to hear your having problems. Have you thought of phoning the Vet? I know you could get an injection to stimulate the milk. Other than that I don't know.
I hope someone with more knowledge will be along shortly. Good luck.
Just a thought. Do you know of someone with a lactating queen that could stand in in the short term?
me_shell
16-09-2007, 05:58 PM
Sorry I did mean to say that my boyfriend took her to the vet hospital this morning & she did recieve that injection... Im still just worrying. (When i called the emergancy vet to so that we could take her in today I got the impression they wernt very happy that they would have to see her when I explained the situation,which kind of shocked me & my boyfriend said they wernt very encouraging about it when he was in there getting her the injection...They just told us to bottle feed them today & call them in the morning.)
Im most worried that they wont take from the bottle hardly at all. Sleepless nights and bottle feeds dont bother me, but I need to get them to want to take it from the bottle. :-(
(A friend of mine has a queen but she isnt lactating at the moment sadly.)
Thanks for replying.x
Dont be despondent. I'm not a breeder but I know how finicky Siamese can be. If there not keen on the bottle then I would say at this stage that's quite good. During the nite they will be hungry. That in turn will stimulate Mum. ( well in theory) It's early days. I think it takes between 12 and 24 hours for the injection to work ( could be wrong )
Sarah had problems like this. I'll give her a call for you and see if she can help. Hold on.
me_shell
16-09-2007, 06:06 PM
Thank you so much! Id really appreciate that.x
She's not home at the moment and I lost the signal. Will txt her.
me_shell
16-09-2007, 06:16 PM
thanks :-)
sarahd
16-09-2007, 07:13 PM
I've pm'ed you too
Sarah
x
Hi, please do not rush into bottle feeding these babys. You could kill them with kindness as if they are reluctant to feed the milk could go onto their lungs and they will in effect drown.
Firstly, it is not uncommon for the milk to take a couple of days to come in. Your vet will most likely have given an injection of oxytocin which helps with letting the milk down. This will take a while to take effect. Have you got a very small syringe? If so syringe a very small amount of warm glucose water into the babies every couple of hours and hopefully by tomorrow her milk will have been let down. If you do have to give formula milk then it should not be full strength, dilute it down so that it is just 'coloured' and again feed just a small amount every couple of hours. 2mls is adequate at this age. if you rush into hand rearing too quickly, the babies will rely on the bottle and be reluctant to feed off mum, hence less milk production, and it's a viscious circle. Good luck, feel free to pm me if you need...
sarahd
16-09-2007, 08:53 PM
I agree with not rushing in to feeding them as they are quite safe to go 24hrs not feeding or not seeming to feed very much.
The oxytocin with Roxie and Fairy took around 24 - 36 hours to kick in for milk supply to fully appear even though it was there a bit beforehand.
The syringe is usually a better way to start if you need to hand feed rather than the bottle and dont force them to drink allow them to take it and stop when they stop. A 10ml syringe is better as it takes less pushing to move the syringe down and has less of a chance of squirting out. I practised with a syringe and a cup till i got the knack of drips rather than squirts.
As for the formula with the Cimicat it does state on the tub one part formula to three parts water if it is the GREEN and RED carton. If its the purple one the dilutions are different so see what changes they have made. I've been using this on one of the kittens i am having to bottle feed and he is doing wonderful gaining weight nicely and feeding really well.
Fingers crossed it will just be a case of first time panics for mum and once she settles she will be fine. Keep her somewhere quiet where she can settle and just check on her occasionally. You will probably find when you pop your head in she jumps up which is a natural thing for them to do not so convenient for the babies lol
Keep an eye on their weights too a gain no matter how small is fine as it will improve with time. A loss in the first 24 hrs is ok but anything after that you need to keep an eye on things and get them gaining.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Sarah
x
I use a 1ml syringe as I feel it is much easier to keep control of the drops. I think it depends what you are comfortable with. No matter what it says on the label of the formula milk, I would always just 'colour' the water at first and not feed a full strength formula to new borns, it's just far too rich for them. I'm sure with the injection and the kittens suckling that it is just a matter of time before her milk flows well. Good luck and do let us know how you get get on.....
smudgley
16-09-2007, 09:12 PM
Great advice from Fran & Sarah. :cool:
If you are supplementing the kitten, personally I would use the correct strength as advised by petlife, this way you know he will be getting some good grub inside him as opposed to just fluids.
Good luck.
me_shell
16-09-2007, 09:33 PM
Thanks to all for your fantastic advice! I will keep you posted.
Shell.xxx :-)
whiskey
16-09-2007, 09:38 PM
i hope the kittens start feeding very soon im sending good vibes your way:)
dandysmom
16-09-2007, 09:44 PM
Good luck, and do keep us posted, please!
Grete
16-09-2007, 11:58 PM
I hope it all works out OK :) Let us know :)
Fingers crossed that last night when all were sleeping these little one's latched on to Mum and are now feeding away no problems.
How many are there?
sarahd
17-09-2007, 10:32 AM
Any news on the kits today
Sarah
x
charliebubs
17-09-2007, 02:05 PM
Good luck and keep us posted. :)
me_shell
17-09-2007, 04:05 PM
Im all of the following... Stunned, amazed, excited, shocked, happy & angry!!!
Let me explain... I got up this morning things where much the same she was happy but not feeding them, so i gave then just a minimum of food for their little tummys to get them through the couple hours I had to be going to work but not so much that they wouldnt keep trying mum for her milk! So... then i got home this afternoon... only to discover!.... ONE MORE KITTEN!!! (No wonder she couldnt settle or be botherd to feed them in all honesty.) She is feeding them prety well now and thats fantastic news!!!
However... She was in with that vet yesterday & he "checked her & felt her" and said "yes she was def empty now"!:S! and then he gave her than injection to help the milk on. Why on earth could he not tell she had another kitten inside her... Im so angry (Surely at the least he should have been able to hear another heart beat???
Anyway for alll my rage, Im just shocked & amazed that this new kitten is healthy and doing well & that mum is feeding them better now. Im hoping by this evening it will all be completely natural to her and she wont give it a second thought!
Im very proud of her... less proud of my vet... & very very greatful to everyone here tha has offerd us such kind words & help! Will keep you further posted.
Love,
Shell.xxx
No wonder the poor wee thing didn't want to feed! bet she feels so much better now.
As for your Vet......I'll go with my first post, get another. To be honest I'd be giving him a mouthful.
I'm so so glad things have sorted themselves out. Nature's brilliant!!! So how many babies do we have?
dandysmom
17-09-2007, 04:26 PM
What a surprise! And I'm amazed that the vet didn't catch it??!!! Great news that the late arrival seems healthy and that mum's feeding them now...please keep us posted, and pics later..???
Great news and congratulations on the extra arrival :cool:
It did cross my mind that there might be another in there but since you had had her checked over by your vet I dismissed the thought :?
Anyhow, hope things progress well now!
sarahd
17-09-2007, 05:22 PM
It will probably have been the oxytocin that brought on the labour of the other kitten. It isnt unheard of that queens can be seen to have finished giving birth and 24 hours later deliver another kitten. It is possible she could have been carrying the kitten in a position where it was difficult to detect it. The only definate way of detecting unborn kittens is through ultrasound scanning and some vets won't do it if they dont feel the need, odd i know when its a sure fire answer.
But the good side is they are all healthy and mum is a lot more settled and feeding well. her milk will probably be coming in now and you will find they all do well.
Keep us posted and look forward to seeing some pictures
Sarah
x
Great to hear she is now feeding the kittens, bit of a shock for you though another arrival!!
So pleased to hear everything is going well now and mum is feeding the babies........ but what a shock that last kitten must have been! :D
Oh and congratulations on the new kittens!:D
Grete
17-09-2007, 06:18 PM
Yay I'm so pleased to read she is feeding them now, poor thing must have been so uncomfortable and unable to settle. Glad the last kitten came through OK too :)
I do agree with Jac tho, it's probably worth looking for another vet that is able to treat your cats as the precious creatures they are.
Can we have some pictures please! :) My kitten broodiness hasn't maxxed out yet :lol:
me_shell
17-09-2007, 07:48 PM
Hello all... :-)
Mum & kittens still doing much better even as the day goes on (As to be expected when I think about it though!)
Still pretty much leaving her alone at the moment to really really form a strong bond with them. She has 4 in total & we couldnt be more happy now.
Im going to try and get up to the mall one evening this week to buy a new digital camera & ill take some photos then!!! (the current one has given up the ghost for some unknown reason! Typical!)
Be in touch again soon :-D
xxx
Glad to hear all is well with the little family.
It is always awkward when newborns don't feed but it is best not to jump in too quickly with hand rearing. If you hand rear them and they are full they will stop feeding off their mum thus causing the milk to never come. It is best to leave them for a while and then only give them a mix of glucose water with the tiniest colouring of milk substitute so it is like cloudy water (newborns cannot absorb the full strength milk and it lies on their stomach and goes sour eventually poisioning their system). Give them tiny amounts of this every 2 hours for at least 24 hours then slowly increase the strength of milk till they are being fed the appropiate strength. Hopefully by this time mum's milk will have come in and you won't need to continue. 1ml syringes are the best to use and your vet can usually supply them. They allow the tiniest drop through at a time and so lessen the chance of the kitten taking to much and possibly get it on their lungs and subsequently drown. Just give 1-2ml every 2 hours.
Glad you didn't need it with this litter but thought it may be helpful with any future litters.
I'm so glad it's all worked out. You must be on top of the world at the moment.
Congratulations to both you and Mum.
sarahd
18-09-2007, 11:46 AM
So glad to hear that mum and the kittens have done well and are thriving.
I am sorry but i still have to agree with Smudgley about giving Cimicat in the strength it says on the tin. I fed my newborn with full strength milk, every two hours and allowed him to feed as much as he could take and he is now two weeks old, doubled his birth weight and fine. We have never had any problems with him having the runs, choking or flooding his lungs. I also used a 10 mls syringe for the first day as i found it easier to control the drops and then used a royal canin feeding bottle which he is still on and I believe him sucking has made him stronger and got him where he is today. Obviously had he been very weak he would have continued to use the syringe until his strength built up.
Its probably a case of each to their own and all kittens will be different. However this method worked for me and has done for my breeding mentor for the last 35 years.
Looking forward to seeing the pictures of the new arrivals real soon
Sarah
x
smudgley
18-09-2007, 10:06 PM
Glad to hear all is well with the little family.
It is always awkward when newborns don't feed but it is best not to jump in too quickly with hand rearing. If you hand rear them and they are full they will stop feeding off their mum thus causing the milk to never come. It is best to leave them for a while and then only give them a mix of glucose water with the tiniest colouring of milk substitute so it is like cloudy water (newborns cannot absorb the full strength milk and it lies on their stomach and goes sour eventually poisioning their system). Give them tiny amounts of this every 2 hours for at least 24 hours then slowly increase the strength of milk till they are being fed the appropiate strength. Hopefully by this time mum's milk will have come in and you won't need to continue. 1ml syringes are the best to use and your vet can usually supply them. They allow the tiniest drop through at a time and so lessen the chance of the kitten taking to much and possibly get it on their lungs and subsequently drown. Just give 1-2ml every 2 hours.
Glad you didn't need it with this litter but thought it may be helpful with any future litters.
Kay, why do you think they can't digest the milk?
What nutritional benefit do they get from coloured water?
If a pup / kitten is weak/ dehydrated, I think rehydration fluid is best initially to give them strength & then if a substitute milk is given, it should be given as directed. Why would they suggest the ratio they do if it isn't suitable?
Just curious to know your thoughts. :)
Smudgley:-
Kittens do not get full strength milk from their mum in the first 2-3 days they just get colostrum. The full strength milk then comes in slowly. This is my reasoning for the weaker milk slowly building up to full strength as per the manufacturer's instructions. Substitute milk is far to heavy for newborn and although they digest a little of it more often than not the majority of it lies in the stomach and curdles then poisoning the kitten. The best option overall is too feed bovine colostrum for the first 2-3 days and then introduce the milk.
Sarah:-
I am glad that your little kitten is surviving but the others didn't. I am sorry if that sounds harsh but I feel you ask others for advice only to ignore them. I am not the only one who has given you the same advice.
I am not saying that a kitten won't survive if fed your way but the figures you have come across this year prove that your way is the exception rather than the rule.
This is the last I am going to say on the subject of handrearing as my experience of it is obviously irrelevant.
Smudgley:-
Kittens do not get full strength milk from their mum in the first 2-3 days they just get colostrum. The full strength milk then comes in slowly. This is my reasoning for the weaker milk slowly building up to full strength as per the manufacturer's instructions. Substitute milk is far to heavy for newborn and although they digest a little of it more often than not the majority of it lies in the stomach and curdles then poisoning the kitten. The best option overall is too feed bovine colostrum for the first 2-3 days and then introduce the milk.
Yes, this is exactly what I have been told by the breeders I bought my girls from. They have been breeding 15 years and 20 years respectively and never ever give newborns full strength milk.
Yes, this is exactly what I have been told by the breeders I bought my girls from. They have been breeding 15 years and 20 years respectively and never ever give newborns full strength milk.
Thanks Fran.
smudgley
19-09-2007, 10:21 AM
:) We'll agree to differ on this as I don't agree. :)
sarahd
19-09-2007, 11:45 AM
Kay it wasnt a case of ignoring your advice it was a case of going with the advice of my breeding mentor who had seen how he was getting on and said he needed the full strength milk to keep him going, she too has been breeding for over 35 years, and not just her but a variety of people from TBRCC which agreed with her. He was also quite a good weight at birth weighing over 4 oz and would not have benefited from the weakened milk in such a small amount and glucose, that was words from my vet and the nurse which does the handrearing in the vets.
Thankfully he is doing well. I dont understand what you mean by the others did not. I havent lost any kittens out of these two litters and his litter mates are feeding from mum so not sure what you mean there. As for the figures i may have come across i feel are totally irrelevant as the other babies that were being hand reared were on a totally different solution and being fed by syringe. Plus they didnt really stand a chance as they were 5 days early. Apart from those kittens I have never hand reared a litter before as these are only my second lot of litters.
I dont want this to turn into a full scale row and i do appreciate being given advice but when you get different advice from different angles you have to go with which ever suits you best. Your experience is far from irrelevant on the hand rearing subject it was just down to me chosing to go with the advice of my breeding mentor and nothing more.
Anyway back to the subject title. How is the new mum and kits doing
Sarah
x
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