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View Full Version : Overpopulation of cats - What Can We Do?


Emm
09-08-2007, 12:03 PM
okay I have started this thread in the hope we can have a positive discussion about what we can do.

This is what I would like to do:

I would like to work with my council to introduce compulsory neutering of all pets. I would like all breeders to be registered and I would also like the introduction of a pet license scheme where the money goes back into animal welfare.

I know this is no easy task but its a start - after all the current situation is not working - so changes need to be made somewhere.

What do you think?

babycakes
09-08-2007, 12:07 PM
I think licensing is a great idea.

I think neutering is a great idea. But as I asked earlier, when do we allow some moggies to breed? who decides this? or is the future in only owning pedigree cats? I for one couldn't afford this and although I love all cats I love moggies as they are unique and their own kind. would this mean no more moggies ever?

Emm
09-08-2007, 12:17 PM
I don't think it means the end of moggies altogether - just say the scheme worked and it helped to reduce the population dramatically - then you would go to a reputable breeder for your moggy cat or kitten - knowing they had been bred form disease free cats and given a stable and safe environment to be born into

charliebubs
09-08-2007, 12:24 PM
Well done Emm!!! :)

Let's get back to something positive!!! :)

I think that licencing is a great idea. If we had to pay a licence to keep a pet we might not think so quickly about doing it.

Compulsory neutering sounds like a wonderful idea, but how would it work in practice??

I know that some breeders are starting to consider keeping their kittens longer and having them neutered before they go to new homes, but how could you enforce this in the moggy world??

:?

babycakes
09-08-2007, 12:26 PM
I do think it's a great idea and I do think its the only way forward. What can we practically do then? There are enough of us to have a say and I think we should

Emm
09-08-2007, 12:33 PM
I think that licencing is a great idea. If we had to pay a licence to keep a pet we might not think so quickly about doing it.

Compulsory neutering sounds like a wonderful idea, but how would it work in practice??

I know that some breeders are starting to consider keeping their kittens longer and having them neutered before they go to new homes, but how could you enforce this in the moggy world??

:?

The compulsory neutering could be linked to the license in some way. Say for example you want a kitten - you apply first of all for your license - you would have to show the license to the registered breeder. There could be a computer data system that automatically sends notice of needing proof that neutering has been done.

Okay I know this sounds like very unrealistic - but if we break it down into councils and have voluntary workers helping - also the money collected should go to help funding the programme. Maybe have the RSPCA and SSPCA involved with enforcing it - punishments for those who don't go with the scheme. Not money fines but maybe community service in they have to go to shelters and help work in them?

Education as well very important. Local papers could dedicate a column for the importance of why this scheme is necessary - local radio as well could be involved. Schools should be involved.....

Emm
09-08-2007, 12:36 PM
I do think it's a great idea and I do think its the only way forward. What can we practically do then? There are enough of us to have a say and I think we should


I think what we can do is work in our own council areas. If you could set up a team of volunteers - and get in touch with your local MP then you could draft up a plan of action.

Things don't change overnight - poeple are resilient sometimes to change - but all it needs is for one person to start and others WILL follow.

There is no such thing as CAN'T only WON'T :lol:

babycakes
09-08-2007, 12:36 PM
You have a lot of excellent ideas that I think are really good. Yes education is schools is very necessary. I think some shock pics would really work as they do with underage drinking and road accidents. Also education on what owning an animal really entails as I don't think people understand the costs and the time.

charliebubs
09-08-2007, 12:57 PM
Great ideas Emm. Just having a think about it all............... ;)

Emm
09-08-2007, 12:58 PM
LOL yes a LOT to think about!

charliebubs
09-08-2007, 01:04 PM
When I lived in Melbourne I had to register Kuta (my only cat at the time) with the Council there. I've just been looking at their website for some inspiration. They also do a neutering scheme, giving discounts for neutering.

Maybe we need to try and get the various local authorities/councils in the UK to start something like this? How would we go about that?

http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/info.cfm?top=6&pa=536&pg=537

http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/info.cfm?top=6&pa=536&pg=539

Emm
09-08-2007, 01:14 PM
omg that is exactly what I was wanting to happen! Thanks so much for the links - you are brilliant!

so it is possible - I don't have time right just now to look over the links in great depth but what a great model to start with!

I think we need to get in touch with our MPs to make this happen?

charliebubs
09-08-2007, 01:17 PM
It's definitely possible if they can do it in Melbourne!!!!

Do you think that's the next step then? Create a petition and take it to all our local MP's?? I have no idea how these things work :?

Emm
09-08-2007, 01:21 PM
tbh me meither - I have never done something like this before.

I think the first thing would be to do some research. We need figures of the exact problem - steps we are going to take to reach our goals - costs etc I think that would be the first thing.

The website that Yola suggested is a great starting point as well for just getting the initial message about spay and neuter out there

dinahsmum
09-08-2007, 03:00 PM
Petition to Downing Street?
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/
Messages to all pet fora and other places mentioned - vets, clubs, etc - requesting members to sign?

Rosie
09-08-2007, 03:56 PM
Good idea in theory but what worries me is that lots and lots of breeders will get very rich as there will be no other source of cats and I hate people making money out of breeding animals be they cat, dog, horse or whatever.

Just before anyone says that good breeders only get back the money they put into the kittens/puppies - example - 16 great dane puppies by £400 work that one out.

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 03:03 PM
Good idea in theory but what worries me is that lots and lots of breeders will get very rich as there will be no other source of cats and I hate people making money out of breeding animals be they cat, dog, horse or whatever.

Just before anyone says that good breeders only get back the money they put into the kittens/puppies - example - 16 great dane puppies by £400 work that one out.

16 great dane puppies x 13 weeks of being fed/watered, all vaccinated, 16 puppy packs, all wormed and de-flead.............that's a lot of money.

I have to say that I agree that a good breeder will be lucky to break even. I don't know so much about dogs - but with kittens it's an awful lot of food and litter and the vets bills etc

Donna
10-08-2007, 03:08 PM
So why do breeders breed if they make no money out of it? There has to be a valid reason why they do it - and money is the only thing I can think of.

I think a licence and all kittens neutered before leaving the breeder would be a good start.

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 03:23 PM
I'll admit that some breeders are in it for the alleged money, Donna, but we genuinely aren't all like that.

I want to breed to better the Ragdoll breed and produce some high quality kittens that will hopefully do well in the cat-show world, one of which I will keep and show.

I'm not by any means a big-scale breeder and nor do I want to be. I think I will only allow Lily to have one more litter and then she'll be neutered.

I agree that a licence for keeping pets is a good idea and I have no objection to neutering before rehoming kittens - although there is some debate about neutering early.

Donna
10-08-2007, 03:28 PM
I'll admit that some breeders are in it for the alleged money, Donna, but we genuinely aren't all like that.

I want to breed to better the Ragdoll breed and produce some high quality kittens that will hopefully do well in the cat-show world, one of which I will keep and show.

I'm not by any means a big-scale breeder and nor do I want to be. I think I will only allow Lily to have one more litter and then she'll be neutered.


I agree that a licence for keeping pets is a good idea and I have no objection to neutering before rehoming kittens - although there is some debate about neutering early.

I didnt realise you were a breeder Charlie, but am interested to learn. How do you make a breed better? Are breeders mainly there for showing animals?

I will admit it is not a world I have ever looked into so would be interested to know more.

I do love Ragdolls, and would one day like to own a pedigree, so understand there is a need for a certain amount of breeding.

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 03:33 PM
I didnt realise you were a breeder Charlie, but am interested to learn. How do you make a breed better? Are breeders mainly there for showing animals?

I will admit it is not a world I have ever looked into so would be interested to know more.

I do love Ragdolls, and would one day like to own a pedigree, so understand there is a need for a certain amount of breeding.

I'm quite new to it all myself Donna ;) I got into breeding because I got into showing and I love it!!! Showing is so addictive and once you start you get to know what the judges like and what they are looking for and I suppose that part of breeding is trying to create that "perfect" cat (but obviously not at the expense of health or temperament).

For example - my Lily has a fairly small head for a ragdoll and so the stud she will go to has a large head, which should balance out her "fault". If she had poor eye colour, then I would put her to a cat with very deep eye colour, and so on.

I do think that there will always be a place for cat breeders, so long as there are cat shows and demand for pedigree kittens.

That doesn't mean that I don't realise that there are bad breeders out there and some who have the wrong ethics. :(

Donna
10-08-2007, 03:37 PM
So a breeder would be happy to check licences for potential owners, and perhaps even have kittens neutered before release to their new homes? I assume the cost of neutering could be added to the price the new owner pays... and as such would deter a lot of people from just wanting a kitten that day?

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 03:43 PM
So a breeder would be happy to check licences for potential owners, and perhaps even have kittens neutered before release to their new homes? I assume the cost of neutering could be added to the price the new owner pays... and as such would deter a lot of people from just wanting a kitten that day?

Yep! :D

Some breeders are already starting to neuter their kittens before they go to new homes. It's done a lot in America. Over here there has been some controvosy about whether it's a good idea to neuter as young as 12 weeks. Some vets say that there is no risk, but others seem to think there is.

The only other alternative would be for the breeders to keep the kittens longer, until they were old enough to be neutered at 5/6 months old.

Good breeders would be more than happy to do this and make sure that the kittens go to fantastic homes!!

Donna
10-08-2007, 03:45 PM
I think an agreement to neuter when the kittens are older would be open to abuse, so not a good idea.

If neutering can be done early then that is the answer. I think having to wait six months for your kitten is a long time, and very costly to the breeder, which would then put the price up even more...

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 03:51 PM
I think an agreement to neuter when the kittens are older would be open to abuse, so not a good idea.

If neutering can be done early then that is the answer. I think having to wait six months for your kitten is a long time, and very costly to the breeder, which would then put the price up even more...

I agree, Donna.

Here is what the GCCF (Governing Council of Cat Fancy) has to say about it.............

http://www.gccfcats.org/neuter.html

So, that would sort out the pedigrees - just need to sort out the moggy breeders now :)

borderdawn
10-08-2007, 03:58 PM
I'm quite new to it all myself Donna ;) I got into breeding because I got into showing and I love it!!! Showing is so addictive and once you start you get to know what the judges like and what they are looking for and I suppose that part of breeding is trying to create that "perfect" cat (but obviously not at the expense of health or temperament).

For example - my Lily has a fairly small head for a ragdoll and so the stud she will go to has a large head, which should balance out her "fault". If she had poor eye colour, then I would put her to a cat with very deep eye colour, and so on.

I do think that there will always be a place for cat breeders, so long as there are cat shows and demand for pedigree kittens.

That doesn't mean that I don't realise that there are bad breeders out there and some who have the wrong ethics. :(
I have showed dogs in 4 breeds over the last 18yrs, I love it too, never bred a litter of puppies though. I find it more pleasing to choose a puppy from a well bred litter, from lines I know and like, and watch it grow, same would be with a cat, I have never felt the inclination to breed more myself. Different strokes I guess, I understand people wanting to produce a line for themselves.
Dawn.

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 04:01 PM
I have showed dogs in 4 breeds over the last 18yrs, I love it too, never bred a litter of puppies though. I find it more pleasing to choose a puppy from a well bred litter, from lines I know and like, and watch it grow, same would be with a cat, I have never felt the inclination to breed more myself. Different strokes I guess, I understand people wanting to produce a line for themselves.
Dawn.

I know what you mean, Dawn, but each to their own I guess. :) I will produce well bred litters, from lines that hopefully people will know and like. All good breeders have to start somewhere! :-D

borderdawn
10-08-2007, 04:39 PM
I know what you mean, Dawn, but each to their own I guess. :) I will produce well bred litters, from lines that hopefully people will know and like. All good breeders have to start somewhere! :-D
Yes I agree they do, and finding your foundation queen/bitch can be really hard, my friend has Dobermanns, she had 3 bitches before she considered the third one was good enough to found her kennel on. Thing was she had a house full of pets by then!! :-D wouldnt of parted with them for anything though.
Dawn.

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 04:57 PM
Yes I agree they do, and finding your foundation queen/bitch can be really hard, my friend has Dobermanns, she had 3 bitches before she considered the third one was good enough to found her kennel on. Thing was she had a house full of pets by then!! :-D wouldnt of parted with them for anything though.
Dawn.

Oh, you just can't resist a little dig!!! lol :-D

smudgley
10-08-2007, 05:20 PM
Who in their right mind keeps 16 GD pups until they are 13 weeks old? :roll:

also puppy packs & insurance usually don't cost the breeder anything.

smudgley
10-08-2007, 06:11 PM
Charlie - can you explain more about your thoughts on balancing out faults? :?
IE if a dog was a good type, of a breed that should have a scissor bite - lets say the dog has lovely movement & everything about him was good except he had a slightly undershot jaw, what would you mate him to? A bitch with an overshot jaw to balance out the fault?

Fran
10-08-2007, 06:15 PM
Charlie - can you explain more about your thoughts on balancing out faults? :?
IE if a dog was a good type, of a breed that should have a scissor bite - lets say the dog has lovely movement & everything about him was good except he had a slightly undershot jaw, what would you mate him to? A bitch with an overshot jaw to balance out the fault?

Well I wouldn't do it that way :? I'd mate him to a bitch who had perfect scissor bite and also all the ancestors in her pedigree as far back as was possible to determine all had perfect bites too. I.e. a line that had no bite faults in it all

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 07:14 PM
Charlie - can you explain more about your thoughts on balancing out faults? :?
IE if a dog was a good type, of a breed that should have a scissor bite - lets say the dog has lovely movement & everything about him was good except he had a slightly undershot jaw, what would you mate him to? A bitch with an overshot jaw to balance out the fault?

I have no idea about dogs and have never heard of a scissor bite :roll: but I wouldn't go to extremes as you are suggesting. If there is a "fault" as such then I would put that dog/cat to another that doesn't have that "fault" in itself or its pedigree ancestory - as Fran has said (thank you Fran :))

I'm sure it's the same in dog breeding - ultimately a good breeder will want to breed a very healthy, lovely temperamented, well socialised, "perfect" show quality animal. :-D

borderdawn
10-08-2007, 07:45 PM
Oh, you just can't resist a little dig!!! lol :-D
NO I didnt mean that! It took me a while to realise what you meant, and we are talking PEDIGREE animals here as a basis for a kennel, not what you meant.:D Seriously.
Dawn.

borderdawn
10-08-2007, 07:48 PM
Well I wouldn't do it that way :? I'd mate him to a bitch who had perfect scissor bite and also all the ancestors in her pedigree as far back as was possible to determine all had perfect bites too. I.e. a line that had no bite faults in it all
I wouldnt mate the dog full stop! How can you eradicate faults in animals when you purposely breed from them with those faults?

Nice to see you Smudgley. ;)
Dawn.

smudgley
10-08-2007, 08:03 PM
That was my point Dawn. ;)

a) that you shouldn't breed from animals with faults anyway, but b)if you do (as Charlie suggested with the eye colour) by going to the other extreme of the fault it is just doubling up on faults - not eliminating them. :roll:

What I'm trying to say is that if you put an animal with a fault to an animal with another fault, you are not going to get a good litter with neither fault.

Charlie - you are breeding cats & you have never heard of a scissor bite?

Fran
10-08-2007, 08:05 PM
I wouldnt mate the dog full stop! How can you eradicate faults in animals when you purposely breed from them with those faults?

Nice to see you Smudgley. ;)
Dawn.


No responsible breeder would breed a dog/cat with an obvious fault if it was a particular fault of the breed but if the dog was slightly undershot/overshot or whatever and it wasn't a reconginised fault of the breed and the dog in every other way was worthy of breeding then I was showing an example of how reputable breeders would go about breeding from such a dog

smudgley
10-08-2007, 08:08 PM
No responsible breeder would breed a dog/cat with an obvious fault if it was a particular fault of the breed but if the dog was slightly undershot/overshot or whatever and it wasn't a reconginised fault of the breed and the dog in every other way was worthy of breeding then I was showing an example of how reputable breeders would go about breeding from such a dog

I agree Fran. :)

I was talking hyperthatically (sp?)

As we know responsible people wouldn't breed from the dog anyway, but I wanted to ask the question as Charlie had stated how she would correct eye colour / head size.

Fran
10-08-2007, 08:08 PM
What I'm trying to say is that if you put an animal with a fault to an animal with another fault, you are not going to get a good litter with neither fault.

Exactly what I was trying to say :roll:

smudgley
10-08-2007, 08:11 PM
Exactly what I was trying to say :roll:

I know that's what you said Fran, but I don't think that's what Charlie was saying.

borderdawn
10-08-2007, 08:15 PM
Charlie.
I am NOT having a go but you really should reconsider breeding if you are not familiar with the basics of cat conformation. The "bite" in a cat or dog is imperitive to its standard. A badly conformed jaw can lead to very serious problems for the animal concerned.

Fran.
I will still disagree here, I know a perfect dog or cat has never been born if we are talking breed standards and showing, but ANY fault that can be clearly seen, should not be bred from in my opinion, our aim should be to produce animals that fit the standard, not almost not quite fit the standard, starting with a known fault like a jaw fault will always come through.
Dawn.

Fran
10-08-2007, 08:36 PM
Fran.
I will still disagree here, I know a perfect dog or cat has never been born if we are talking breed standards and showing, but ANY fault that can be clearly seen, should not be bred from in my opinion, our aim should be to produce animals that fit the standard, not almost not quite fit the standard, starting with a known fault like a jaw fault will always come through.
Dawn.

Dawn, I agree with you :)

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 09:09 PM
That was my point Dawn. ;)

a) that you shouldn't breed from animals with faults anyway, but b)if you do (as Charlie suggested with the eye colour) by going to the other extreme of the fault it is just doubling up on faults - not eliminating them. :roll:

What I'm trying to say is that if you put an animal with a fault to an animal with another fault, you are not going to get a good litter with neither fault.

Charlie - you are breeding cats & you have never heard of a scissor bite?

Perhaps I haven't explained what I was trying to say quite eloquently enough :? Obviously I don't mean that I would breed any animal with a fault as such, what I mean is that if something isn't quite ideal that you could breed to better it. For example, Lily has a small head - this is not a genetic fault or indeed any fault - she is perfect in every other way (!) but by putting her to a big cat, who is bigger boned - she shouldn't produce kittens with small-ish heads. The same with eye colour - I didn't mean going to extremes - just that if one cat has a pale eye colour then you could put it to a cat with fantastic, deep eye colour and produce better eye colour in the kittens.

That's why Siamese were outcrossed with Raggies many moons ago.........to bring in the deep blue Siamese eye colour ;)

I know that's what you said Fran, but I don't think that's what Charlie was saying.

It is what I was saying - just perhaps not as well :)

Charlie.
I am NOT having a go but you really should reconsider breeding if you are not familiar with the basics of cat conformation. The "bite" in a cat or dog is imperitive to its standard. A badly conformed jaw can lead to very serious problems for the animal concerned.

Dawn.

Of course I know what a "bite" is - but I have never heard the term "scissor bite". Plus I have not come across any problems with bite in Ragdolls (not like Persians for example) so I haven't had any experience of it.

I really don't want to have another Catsey disagreement. I know what your thoughts on breeding are - full stop - so we could just leave it at that?! :-D

smudgley
10-08-2007, 09:19 PM
Thankyou for explaining.

Now I understand what you meant Charlie. :)

borderdawn
10-08-2007, 09:37 PM
I dont think you do know how I feel about breeding Charlie, Ill tell you. I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM whatsoever with responsibly bred litters of kittens or puppies for that matter, its something I have been directly involved with for the last 18yrs! I have whelped many bitches from 3/4 different breeds, docked tails, removed dew claws (when legal) hand reared puppies and kittens and raised litters of kittens for animal rescues, I hope thats clear now.

I think youre being a bit naive to think Ragdolls do not have mouth faults, they do, I agree perhaps not to the extent a Persian might, but Ive seen them myself at work.

What is breeding and showing all about Charlie? Producing the best? showing the best? So theres the litter in front of you, the breed should have a long muzzle (hypothetically) this kitten is lovely but its muzzle is really short, not suitable for showing, what do you do with it? sell it as a pet! right? In months to come the jaw develops, the bottom jaw continues to grow and thats the one that will in all probablity turn undershot, what would you know about it? given the fact that the majority of kitten and puppy owners do not keep in touch with the breeder, you will never know how that kitten turned out.

Im sure Fran, Smudgely etc.. will confirm this, you are not likely to have seen problems like this if you havent been in it long, and if you havent been around pet cats of any breed at an adult age, you are never ever going to see these faults in the show ring.

I hope you understand, im not trying to be awkward, you know how I lack tact, but I just wanted to tell you how I felt. :)

charliebubs
10-08-2007, 09:39 PM
I understand Dawn. :)

borderdawn
10-08-2007, 10:00 PM
I hope so, my mouth flaps at a rate of knots, :cat13 and I often am less than careful with my words than I could be, I dont mean it, its just the way I am, straight to the point! :-D
Dawn.