Breeding of cats

[prrrrfect]

Im thinking about setting up a breeding kennels but im finding it hard to think of what breed i want it to be for. Any ideas?? Bengal...Siamese...Ragdoll...???? There are so many to choose form. i dont know where to start.

Help...!!!:p

[dinahsmum]

This recent thread may give you some ideas http://www.catsey.com/showthread.php?t=19873
plus you must speak to current breeders. It isn't an easy thing; don't seek to make your fortune and don't think it will be a bed of roses - there are plenty of very sad tales here if you look around the posts.
Think twice, then again, then again; learn all you can and then think about it again

[prrrrfect]

Thanks dinahsmum! That is very true. I used to breed bombays and we had a few sad tails there. Thank you again!

[Kay]

If you would like to PM me I will give you my phone number and try and answer any questions you have. I breed Persians and there is no profit in it and it can be very heartbreaking but it is lovely when everthing goes right.

[sarahd]

Hi Prrrrr
I have to echo the answers from the others here. Its not plain sailing when you breed cats like people are lead to believe.
I have just lost my first litter of raggies and it is heartbreaking. I hand fed them for four days as they were premature and mum had no milk but unfortunately to no avail and one by one they died.
My best advice to you is read up on the breeds and see which one grabs you the most. Join the local breed club too as they run very interesting seminars. We went on one for the raggies and it helps you with the genetics and colour predictions etc. It only skims the surface but its extra knowledge to set you on your way. Then if you can find yourself a local breeder and get to know them. Ideally one who has had lots of experience and ask them to mentor you. Again valuable experience can never be too much.
i would speak in favour of the ragdolls as they are very loving cats and usually dont have many problems in birthing etc just seems unfortunate that we did. Also the British Shorthairs again are wonderful cats to have but can be a bit difficult when you are having to find out blood grouping etc but this again in the long run saves any heartache further down the line to losing kittens as they are not compatible.

Good luck with whatever and whichever breed you chose to embark in and feel free to contact me should you need to.

Sarah
x

[Hreow]

If you don't even know what breed you want to improve, are you sure it's the right thing to think about breeding? To be a good breeder, you need to do a lot of research into bloodlines and be able to pick good matches. Two great cats do not guarantee great kittens, even for those who know what they're doing. Though I suppose you could get away with having a reputable breeder mentoring you. :-)

If you're just pining for a few nests of kittens a year, have you considered fostering mums-to-be?

Sorry if this sounds condescending and wet-blankety, I'm aiming for "well meaning". :-)

[Kazz]

I think if I were going to breed anything cats, dogs, fish, whatever it would be because I love the breed and think I could imporve what I already have rather than choose to bred then choose the breed, surely whichever breed appeals to you most is the one you want to breed.

Karen

[charliebubs]

No offence, but it does seem slightly backwards!!! I agree with what the others say. If you're not even sure of which breed you like yet, then the idea of breeding seems slightly premature.

Plus, I'm not keen on the way you call it a "breeding kennels". To me that sounds like kitten farming. Perhaps I have just read it wrong??!! I believe that the best breeders do it more as a hobby and raise all their kittens in the home and that their cats are their beloved pets first and foremost.............it's not something that is done in kennels.

That's my opinion only though. :)

[Kim]

I'm with Hreow on this one. As others have said this is hard work for very little monetary reward. There are plenty of breeders and plenty of cats in rescue including pedigrees. I think you have to be 100% certain that this is the right thing to do both practically & ethically.

[dandysmom]

I agree with the others. It's a time consuming. expensive and sometimes heartbreaking hobby, and if you're not in love with a particular breed, I do question why you're considering it? I too don't mean to sound wet-blankety.....have you really thought this through?

[sarahd]

Speaking again as a breeder and a novice one at that i have to agree with some points being made on here.
I do agree that kitten farming is not the way to go although i do maybe think that prrrr wasnt meaning it in quite that way, i think maybe more misworded could be the case :)
The monetary thing is very true and you are lucky to break even as they say let alone make money. For me its the enjoyment of having my cats and feeling i can give someone else the joy of what my cats bring to me for themselves if that makes sense.
As for cats in rescue's again this is a sad but true fact but i dont think it should be purely the fault of breeders (not causing arguements here :) ). As a breeder you can afford to be choosy who has your kittens no matter what. Or in my opinion you can. If i didnt like the person for some reason or felt that they didnt click with the cats when they visited then i wouldnt allow them to have one of my kittens full stop. Same as if they come and the cats climb on them and their first response is to brush off the hair to me thats another bad sign as the cats will shed in their house, on furniture, on your best black jacket lol. This is part and parcel of anything with fur. Even people malt and lose hair for goodness sake.
But i do have to STRESS again breeding is not something to be taken lightly and needs careful consideration.
Another thing that has to be taken into consideration too is that there are some bad breeders out there that are in it purely for the money etc and that bad feeling or reputation should not be tarred against us decent breeders that have our cats health and well being first and foremost in whatever we do.
Sorry about that lol (gets down off soapbox :) )

Sarah
x

[dandysmom]

Sarah, you've expressed that beautifully! Thank you for saying what I couldn't quite put into words!

[sarahd]

and here's me pooping myself in case i'd worded something wrong or offended someone DM lol

Sarah
x

[charliebubs]

Hahahaha!!! Well done Sarah - exactly what i was trying to say!!!! lol :):)

[borderdawn]

Hi Sarah.
What constitutes a good breeder in your opinion? See what concerns me is the majority of these breeders have a host of young female cats with perhaps one stud or maybe 2, rarely are these Cats kept once they have finished their usefullness, this to me is disgusting and just typifies everything I hate about so called responsible breeders! How do you see it?

[charliebubs]

Hi Sarah.
What constitutes a good breeder in your opinion? See what concerns me is the majority of these breeders have a host of young female cats with perhaps one stud or maybe 2, rarely are these Cats kept once they have finished their usefullness, this to me is disgusting and just typifies everything I hate about so called responsible breeders! How do you see it?

I actually agree with you Dawn!!!!! :shock: ;)

That kind of behaviour I do also disagree with and think it's unethical.

I also don't really agree with people who breed from pens in their gardens, rather than in the house.

Personally, I will never keep my own stud cat and my girls will all be kept as the lovely pets that they are once they have retired until the end of their days.
:D

[borderdawn]

OMG!!! We do agree Charlie. :-D :-D
Dawn.

[charliebubs]

OMG!!! We do agree Charlie. :-D :-D
Dawn.

LOL - I'm pleased!!!!! :D :-D

[sarahd]

Hi Dawn
I think a good breeder should be one who puts their cats welfare and health first and foremost before anything else. They should consider carefully who and where their kittens will be rehomed to and where possible keep in touch with new owners although as you can appreciate that isnt always possible. Not having loads and loads of litter to the extent you dont know who's who and which father is to which litter. Although overlapping of dates on due queens sometimes cannot be helped due to excessive calling occuring.
I have pens in my garden but they are purely for the cats to get access to the fresh air and having the knowledge that they are safe and away from any danger. I would never bring my kittens up outside they would always be indoors joining in with the hustle and bustle of everyday life. Anyone who says they are in it for the money obviously hasnt bred before because as Charlie says somewhere else on a thread there is no money to be made. Yes ok we sell our kittens but at the end of the day they needed kittening pens in which to have their kittens safely, they need heat mats to keep the kittens warm, vet bills to ensure they are healthy or given any meds they need, food and litter obviously and then there is the purchase of the mother cat herself which in my breeds they dont come cheap.
As for the rehoming a queen after breeding i do and dont agree. If the queen has been bred from a few times which ideally should only be four litters in a lifetime i think less if problems occur then I feel IMO its nice if you can spey them and let them go to a family home where they will be lavished with love and attention in a one to one situation. They will never have that in a breeder home no matter how hard you try. Dont get me wrong i am not saying breeding cats are not loved and dont get attention far from it but they would benefit more in a pet household. I think its a nice way of saying thankyou to the queen for all the lovely kittens she produced and the hard labour and slog she had raising them to be able to give her some good years of love and happiness but again thats only my opinion.

Sarah

[charliebubs]

I do disagree with your last paragraph Sarah, but I guess it depends on how many cats you have in your home to start with. :?

Personally, when Lily has finished breeding I will have her neutered and keep her as my lifelong pet and buddy. I think that is more of a thank you than rehoming her. She is not a commodity that can just be passed on when I no longer have any use for her.

I do plan to keep one of her female raggie kittens (when she has them!) to carry on the line, and i would do the same with her once her breeding time was over.

That's just my opinion though and, as we have all agreed, we are all entitled to our own opinions. :)

[smudgley]

Hi Dawn
I think a good breeder should be one who puts their cats welfare and health first and foremost before anything else. They should consider carefully who and where their kittens will be rehomed to and where possible keep in touch with new owners although as you can appreciate that isnt always possible. Not having loads and loads of litter to the extent you dont know who's who and which father is to which litter. Although overlapping of dates on due queens sometimes cannot be helped due to excessive calling occuring.
I have pens in my garden but they are purely for the cats to get access to the fresh air and having the knowledge that they are safe and away from any danger. I would never bring my kittens up outside they would always be indoors joining in with the hustle and bustle of everyday life. Anyone who says they are in it for the money obviously hasnt bred before because as Charlie says somewhere else on a thread there is no money to be made. Yes ok we sell our kittens but at the end of the day they needed kittening pens in which to have their kittens safely, they need heat mats to keep the kittens warm, vet bills to ensure they are healthy or given any meds they need, food and litter obviously and then there is the purchase of the mother cat herself which in my breeds they dont come cheap.
As for the rehoming a queen after breeding i do and dont agree. If the queen has been bred from a few times which ideally should only be four litters in a lifetime i think less if problems occur then I feel IMO its nice if you can spey them and let them go to a family home where they will be lavished with love and attention in a one to one situation. They will never have that in a breeder home no matter how hard you try. Dont get me wrong i am not saying breeding cats are not loved and dont get attention far from it but they would benefit more in a pet household. I think its a nice way of saying thankyou to the queen for all the lovely kittens she produced and the hard labour and slog she had raising them to be able to give her some good years of love and happiness but again thats only my opinion.

Sarah

If you think it's a long hard slog for her to rear a litter, then why do you do it?

[borderdawn]

I think a good breeder should be one who puts their cats welfare and health first and foremost before anything else.

But only as long as they are serving a purpose?

I have pens in my garden but they are purely for the cats to get access to the fresh air and having the knowledge that they are safe and away from any danger.
Totally agree with that.:D

I would never bring my kittens up outside they would always be indoors joining in with the hustle and bustle of everyday life.
Totally agree with that too!:-D

Anyone who says they are in it for the money obviously hasnt bred before because as Charlie says somewhere else on a thread there is no money to be made.
That I do not believe, reasons explained in a while...

Yes ok we sell our kittens but at the end of the day they needed kittening pens in which to have their kittens safely, they need heat mats to keep the kittens warm, vet bills to ensure they are healthy or given any meds they need, food and litter obviously and then there is the purchase of the mother cat herself which in my breeds they dont come cheap.

Your choice to breed these Cats of course you should provide them with the correct facilities, but you shouldnt use that as an excuse to breed them in the first place. Everything you have said there doesnt lie right with me, listing everyday needs of a Cat is no reason to breed or sell them, you do that because you WANT to, not because you NEED to!

If the queen has been bred from a few times which ideally should only be four litters in a lifetime i think less if problems occur then I feel IMO its nice if you can spey them and let them go to a family home where they will be lavished with love and attention in a one to one situation. They will never have that in a breeder home no matter how hard you try. Dont get me wrong i am not saying breeding cats are not loved and dont get attention far from it but they would benefit more in a pet household
There you go, thats it, making out that a Cat will be "better off" somewhere else, indicating that the life they have served with the breeder is not ideal for the Cat, but for the breeder in order to serve its purpose., THIS is what I hate about breeders on a biggish scale. This is also a common excuse given by dog breeders.

Thanks Sarah for your reply, these thoughts, like yours, are only my opinion and not aimed towards anyone really, I just wanted to highlight my feelings on why I think some breeders try to make out they do not do it for money, when for the most part they must do, otherwise why on earth would they do it, because 8 out of 10 times they dont keep a kitten and rehome the queen when they have finished with her. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Im NOT anti breeder, otherwise I wouldnt have pedigree dogs and Cats and show dogs too, in fact I would possibly of bred from my own bitch given the winning she has done and has proved herself in the field too, however she developed a closed Pyometra and she was spayed in order to save her, given the option of "trying" to cure it with anti-biotics in order for me to breed from her never entered my mind, and she will stay with me all her life.
Dawn.

[Kay]

There are bad breeders, and I use that word loosely, in both the cat and dog world and it seems to me that these are the only type of people who get noticed. The good breeders who care about their pets, be it dogs/cats or whatever, just get tarred with the same brush. When done properly abiding by all the GCCF rules and caring properly for your pets then you are lucky if you break even. (I can prove this as I keep an accounts book and I am more than willing to show it to whoever wants to see it.) However that isn't what good breeders are in it for. They are trying to improve on the breed. I personally would not rehome a cat after he/she had been neutered as first and foremost they are my babies and I think it is nice to see different generations. I do keep some of my kittens to improve on my lines as do all good, responsible breeders, the rest are sold to loving pet homes. I have only ever sold one girl for breeding (at pet price to a so called friend) and I had to take her and the neuter I sold to the same home back. For this reason, despite the fact I could make double money selling a breeding queen and triple for a stud, I won't do that again.
There are good and bad breeders as in all walks of life but while people continue to buy from the bad breeders then they will continue to breed. People don't always go about buying a pedigree cat/dog the right way. They set their mind on a breed and just go and get a puppy/kitten from the first breeder they see advertising instead of looking around. If the breeder asks you indepth questions about your family, home, knowledge of the breed etc then this is a good sign that they care about their babies and where they are going. In return good breeders like you to ask questions back and if they care they will take the time to answer anything you may ask. Another good sign is if they allow you to see their other cats. If they hide the others away and only bring out the kittens I would steer clear. The best indication of a good breeder though is by word of mouth.
So to try and cut down on bad breeders do a bit of research before buying a kitten. We aren't all bad.

[sarahd]

Right first can I reiterate I am NOT in it for the money and purely for the chance to be able to give someone the joy that i experience owning one of the beautiful cats i breed. Yes there are other breeders out there that breed the same ones as i do but like you say i CHOOSE to breed also.
I am not saying that i breed the cats to be able to afford what the cats need. I am purely stating and pointing out that their is also expense that goes with breeding and its not all money in the pocket. I do choose to breed and of course it is my duty to provide my cats with everything they need. If i didnt that would constitute me as a BAD breeder wouldnt it?
Also can i state its not a case of use the cat till its no use and then palm it on. I have an ex breeding queen here and she hasnt been palmed on nor will she be she will be speyed and stay here to live out the rest of her life in luxury. But there are some cats that cannot live in a multi cat household and dont take to breeding therefore it is kinder for them to go and live elsewhere where they are settled and comfortable. Its in their best interests to be away from whatever stresses them out. Its NOT good breeding practise to subject them to stress that you know full well they get upset by. I also had an experience where i bought a kitten as a potential breeding queen. She had lots of health problems along the way and I paid out a fortune at the vets to see what was wrong with her. I didnt have to i had the option to give her back to the breeder and get my money back or a replacement. But she had tugged at my heart strings and i loved her so i was keeping her regardless of her being breeding potential or not. Unfortunately she had to be PTS in the end and that little kitten cat still stays in my mind and she always will do. She even has a memorial plaque in my garden along with my older cat who i lost a few years ago. So please DON'T judge me by something i may have miswrote or got across wrongly.
As for my previous post as Smudgley pulled me up on Slog is a term of phrase for hard work. Of course raising babies is hard work whether it be human or animal but if it put any of the cats in distress or things went wrong for any reason i wouldnt do it again with that particular cat.
I will get shot down no matter what i say or however i defend myself. To be honest i dont think i should defend my actions to anyone. I do what i chose to do but not at the expense of my cats health and well being and can hold my head up high and say this with truth and honesty.

Sarah
x

[borderdawn]

Sarah, this is NOT a dig at you, nor any responsible breeder, its personal thoughts of how peopels ideas of breeding should be. Look at it this way, if what you did was in dogs, you could well be called a puppy farmer, i.e breeding pet animals to sell, to supply the pet market, as you have never said you have ever bred to further your own interest within either of the breeds you have, and you have just said purely for the chance to be able to give someone the joy that i experience owning one of the beautiful cats i breed. so if its not for money, do you charge a minimal price, say £100 per kitten, or is it top market value? You dont have to answer that at all, its just theoretical and making a point.

Some people do not like the "get rid" aspect of breeding, and its happening all the time, its pathetic to make excuses saying they will be better off because you will have known that from the start, but you chose to keep that animal regardless of its happiness as it was serving a purpose for you.

Dont take any of this personally, I work my terriers and come in for a HUGE amount of critisism regularly, however I respect everybody's opinion and truly understand that their views are different to mine.

Anyway I look forward to seeing Tilly grow, she's family! :-D
Dawn.

[Hreow]

Infernal gall here:
Dawn has a very direct, no nonsense tolerated way of saying exactly what she means. She is often right and I have a lot of respect for her, even though she often comes across to me as harshly critical. I'm sure this is at least partly because of all the insincere or deluded rubbish she is faced with on a daily basis. There is some point that any good person (and I think Dawn is) has to deal the straight honest truth, whether it upsets someone or not.

Sarah, I haven't read as many of your posts but I think you have a more diplomatic, teaching way of dealing with disagreements. I would guess you haven't had to deal with as much criticism as Dawn. Please don't feel anyone is out to get you, you have a lot to contribute to the discussion.

Can we agree to agree on the main thing, which I would guess would be that a good breeder does everything necessary to ensure the health and happiness of their breeding-stock and offspring, and do their level best to improve (or at least not worsen) the breed? And agree to disagree on the exact wording on the details? I don't want this to turn into one of those threads where half feel hurt and the rest feel misunderstood and/or indignant when we mean the same things only seen from different experiences and aspects. I think it is a valuable discussion, even when we're preaching for the choir like we are here.

And I think poor Prrrrfect has had more of an earful than she deserves as we've hijacked her thread... :grin: Maybe this should be continued in another thread?

[smudgley]

Right first can I reiterate I am NOT in it for the money and purely for the chance to be able to give someone the joy that i experience owning one of the beautiful cats i breed. Yes there are other breeders out there that breed the same ones as i do but like you say i CHOOSE to breed also.
I am not saying that i breed the cats to be able to afford what the cats need. I am purely stating and pointing out that their is also expense that goes with breeding and its not all money in the pocket. I do choose to breed and of course it is my duty to provide my cats with everything they need. If i didnt that would constitute me as a BAD breeder wouldnt it?
Also can i state its not a case of use the cat till its no use and then palm it on. I have an ex breeding queen here and she hasnt been palmed on nor will she be she will be speyed and stay here to live out the rest of her life in luxury. But there are some cats that cannot live in a multi cat household and dont take to breeding therefore it is kinder for them to go and live elsewhere where they are settled and comfortable. Its in their best interests to be away from whatever stresses them out. Its NOT good breeding practise to subject them to stress that you know full well they get upset by. I also had an experience where i bought a kitten as a potential breeding queen. She had lots of health problems along the way and I paid out a fortune at the vets to see what was wrong with her. I didnt have to i had the option to give her back to the breeder and get my money back or a replacement. But she had tugged at my heart strings and i loved her so i was keeping her regardless of her being breeding potential or not. Unfortunately she had to be PTS in the end and that little kitten cat still stays in my mind and she always will do. She even has a memorial plaque in my garden along with my older cat who i lost a few years ago. So please DON'T judge me by something i may have miswrote or got across wrongly.
As for my previous post as Smudgley pulled me up on Slog is a term of phrase for hard work. Of course raising babies is hard work whether it be human or animal but if it put any of the cats in distress or things went wrong for any reason i wouldnt do it again with that particular cat.
I will get shot down no matter what i say or however i defend myself. To be honest i dont think i should defend my actions to anyone. I do what i chose to do but not at the expense of my cats health and well being and can hold my head up high and say this with truth and honesty.

Sarah
x

I haven't pulled you up on anything sarah, I just found your remark a strange one. I had not posted on this thread until then, & regardless of my thoughts on breeding animals, I don't actually think it's a hard slog for them to rear a litter, I in fact think most cats love every minute of it. Obviously this is not justification to breed them (just because they like it) so basically I don't agree that it's a hard slog for a cat to rear a litter if it's done with the correct care & feeding regime in place. I will add again.... my thoughts on breeding have nothing to do with my thoughts on weather or not it's hard for a cat to rear a litter.

& I hope the final paragraph was not aimed at me as I have not shot anyone down for breeding their animals. :)

[sarahd]

I havent aimed any comment at anybody in particularly.
I agree that the first and foremost thing in breeding has to be and always will be the welfare of the animals.

[borderdawn]

Infernal gall here:
Dawn has a very direct, no nonsense tolerated way of saying exactly what she means. She is often right and I have a lot of respect for her, even though she often comes across to me as harshly critical. I'm sure this is at least partly because of all the insincere or deluded rubbish she is faced with on a daily basis. There is some point that any good person (and I think Dawn is) has to deal the straight honest truth, whether it upsets someone or not.

I think you know me too well :mrgreen:
dawn.

[dandysmom]

Infernal gall here:
Dawn has a very direct, no nonsense tolerated way of saying exactly what she means. She is often right and I have a lot of respect for her, even though she often comes across to me as harshly critical. I'm sure this is at least partly because of all the insincere or deluded rubbish she is faced with on a daily basis. There is some point that any good person (and I think Dawn is) has to deal the straight honest truth, whether it upsets someone or not.

Sarah, I haven't read as many of your posts but I think you have a more diplomatic, teaching way of dealing with disagreements. I would guess you haven't had to deal with as much criticism as Dawn. Please don't feel anyone is out to get you, you have a lot to contribute to the discussion.

Can we agree to agree on the main thing, which I would guess would be that a good breeder does everything necessary to ensure the health and happiness of their breeding-stock and offspring, and do their level best to improve (or at least not worsen) the breed? And agree to disagree on the exact wording on the details? I don't want this to turn into one of those threads where half feel hurt and the rest feel misunderstood and/or indignant when we mean the same things only seen from different experiences and aspects. I think it is a valuable discussion, even when we're preaching for the choir like we are here.

And I think poor Prrrrfect has had more of an earful than she deserves as we've hijacked her thread... :grin: Maybe this should be continued in another thread? Beautifully expressed, Hreow!!! I agree 100%.

[charliebubs]

I think you know me too well :mrgreen:
dawn.

Oh, we do Dawn!!!! lol :-D :-D :-D

And we do love you for it!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[smudgley]

I havent aimed any comment at anybody in particularly.
I agree that the first and foremost thing in breeding has to be and always will be the welfare of the animals.

I think we'd all agree with that. :cool:

[dandysmom]

Amen to that, Smudgley!

[catmadjax]

I agree with the others too, I know lots of breeders and none of them have outside pens exept for the prize winning toms, all the litters are kept in the house to socialise with people etc. the breeders I know, breed Birmans, but I do know that all of them have show winnings to their names and have built up a reputation on the show front first.

[Kim]

Well done Hreow, as tactful as usual and wonderfully expressed. Having 'known' Dawn for quite a while, both here and on other forums, I would say you have her well summed up!!! ;) :-D :-D :-D I agree with Dawn's sentiments, even though there are several things we don't agree on, eh Dawn!! But we won't go into that! :-D ;)

[borderdawn]

Well done Hreow, as tactful as usual and wonderfully expressed. Having 'known' Dawn for quite a while, both here and on other forums, I would say you have her well summed up!!! ;) :-D :-D :-D I agree with Dawn's sentiments, even though there are several things we don't agree on, eh Dawn!! But we won't go into that! :-D ;)
Aye you lot know me well now! :oops:

Kim, what dont we agree on? cant imagine what you are talking about? :-D ;)