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View Full Version : Persian Cats, then and now, your thoughts..


borderdawn
30-05-2006, 08:23 PM
Perhaps not a debate, but 3 Cats I am boarding, plus the attitude I got from some Persian breeders, whilst still deciding on a new Cat, has promted this thread. This breed is very precious to me, I hate to see it abused, and in recent years the US influence of "Ultra" type Cats have IMO put the breed in serious difficulties health wise.

We have some Persian folk and Kay that shows them, so their input would be great, just peoples thoughts on what is now the "Persian"

First Cat, my Schnapps. 14yrs old, clean eyes, no snorting, no snotty nose or sneezing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/dawnieb/canon13242.jpg

Second Cat, Chinchilla Persian, 9yrs old, clean eyes, no sneezing, no snorting.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/dawnieb/canon16734.jpg

Third Cat 5yrs, very pinched nose, a lot of sneezing, and snorting and some eye discharge.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/dawnieb/canon16737.jpg

Fourth Cat, exotic, 3yrs, mouth permanently open, eyes self explanatory, cant breath freely and sneezes and snorts all day, purchased as an "Ultra" type Exotic. Requires warm water cleaning 3 times a day, discharge builds up withing hours.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/dawnieb/canon16735.jpg

Given the Cats ages, do you think the new trend is detrimental to the Cats wellbeing?
Dawn.

Kim
30-05-2006, 08:49 PM
Interesting topic Dawn. I must confess I have never really been a fan of the persian cat, just my opinion though, I know how popular they are and your cat looks the picture of health. However, I am totally against the 'ultra' type. I feel quite sorry for the cat in the forth picture, he looks uncomfortable and those poor eyes... just doesn't seem right to me. :( :?
I do think it is detrimental to the cats wellbeing. I know that quite a few persians end up in rescue mainly due to some owners not realising the amount of care they need. At our Animal Sanctuary we have had a few in with horrendous matts. The ones I have known are very laid back and with responsible owners make lovely pets. I wouldn't like to see the breed die out, but just don't think the 'ultra' type is being fair to the cat.

Donna
30-05-2006, 09:15 PM
The last two pictures are horrendous - I am not a fan a Persians but it is because I assumed all Persians looked like the last two pictures.

I dont see how anybody can like the latter pictures. Or want to own a cat like that. They are not attractive and have health issues. What is the point?

All this pedigree breeding does have its downsides and these pictures illustrate it clearly.

candyshandy
30-05-2006, 10:23 PM
Firstly remember cats should be loved for themselves not what they look like.

Oscar (Mums rescue) looks a bit like the cat in the third piccie and he's not horrendous, he is gorgeous!!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/candiceh/Oscar/sleepy.jpg

My persians are not ultra and I do agree that some breeders have taken the ultra to extremes (no pun intended). Where I disagree with the ultra breeding is if there are health issues. I know of some ultra persian owners who have to hand feed their cats as they just cannot manage to pick up the food at all.:(

yola
30-05-2006, 10:41 PM
I bought 2 of my persians as kittens from breeders. One, Fifi is very much a doll-faced persian, see below. She does need her eyes wiping, but only about 1-2 times per week. She has no breathing difficulties and can mostly eat normally, however can't (for example) pick up peices of meat/ham off the floor - I have to help her with that. I think she is the most beautiful out of all my 3 persians. She thinks so too ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/yolamealing/Cat_pictures_006.jpg

Balie IS a bit more flat faced. He prefers to eat his food raised and not out of a deep bowl. He doesn't do it so much now, but when he was younger he used to 'throw' the biscuits up a little and catch them. This worried me as he obviously couldn't pick up his food. He has deep gullies either side of his nose and his eyes really do need wiping daily.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/yolamealing/2_2004008.jpg

Darcy is a different matter altogether. He's a rescue who obviously has a deformed jaw (with the lower protruding further than it should) giving him that snarling look. He does wheeze and his eyes do get quite mucky. He prefers to drink from a tap rather than from a water bowl on the floor, but seems not to struggle to eat :roll: Despite his wheezing, he is an energetic little chap and runs around everywhere. His facial disfigurement doesn't seem to concern him too much.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/yolamealing/P1010017.jpg

I don't think it is right to breed an animal for 'show quality' alone. Especially if that 'quality' compromises their comfort and functionality (i.e., if they struggle to breathe).

I don't (obviously) think persians are at all ugly - quite the opposite I adore the breed, but I find that last picture of Dawn's quite disturbing as the cat looks sad and uncomfortable and has a look of 'please help me' about it :( . Any kind of extreme pedigree brings its own health issues and I think it is unfair on the animal to subject it to such a strenuous and select breeding pattern.

Moli
30-05-2006, 10:51 PM
Must admit, not keen on the exotic above, its face is too squashed....

Much prefer Merlins face....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/molidoodle/me/untitled.jpg

Hreow
30-05-2006, 10:52 PM
I can't get my head around any of the extreme types. The siamese as well - thin brush-stroke cats. No health problems that I know of (not well informed on the subject by any stretch), but I just want a cat-shaped cat. Munchkins... Hate to have to run away from something with nothing for legs, but they may be indoors only and happy with it.
Anything that will give health-problems is wrong, imho. (All breeding will remove some vigour, and there's no guaranteed way to pick the best genes (most alleles being "invisible" unil they go very wrong or right) but at least it's generally only enhancing something harmless such as deeper colour.)

Blathering - bed-time. Night!

candyshandy
30-05-2006, 11:07 PM
Darcy :smt049

Here are my three - not dollfaced but not extreme. They all throw their biscuits in the air (except for Fabian) but have improved a lot since eating RC persian. They will all drink out of a water bowl or the fountain.

Sol - still manages to throw biscuits around but not too bad. His eyes need cleaning about once a week

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/candiceh/Sol/amazin.jpg

This is Fabian who has a big chin - he has no proiblems eating but quite weepy eyes, they require cleaning every day

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/candiceh/Fabian/Fabes4sml.jpg

And Foofoo - she doesn't have many teeth left so does struggle with biscuits, she still manages fine though. Her eyes need cleaning every day too.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/candiceh/ffonstairs2_sml.jpg

Sweet
31-05-2006, 10:46 AM
I have no experience with Persians, but wanted to say........

The above pics in this thread all look gorgeous, well loved and cared for x

dinahsmum
31-05-2006, 12:13 PM
Compared with the dog world, I think cats have been fortunate up to now in (mostly) not being bred to extreme and picking up associated health problems.
I hope this doesn't change/go further. The sphynx and the extreme flat-noses are far enough, cats don't need long legs/short legs, big jaws, rasta hair, wrinkly skin etc etc etc.

Snoof
02-06-2006, 12:47 AM
Compared with the dog world, I think cats have been fortunate up to now in (mostly) not being bred to extreme and picking up associated health problems.
I hope this doesn't change/go further. The sphynx and the extreme flat-noses are far enough, cats don't need long legs/short legs, big jaws, rasta hair, wrinkly skin etc etc etc.

I agree. I think the success of extreme breeding is largely comparable to the success of such dogbreeds as labradoodles and what have you - nobody particularly cares about the cat itself but it's something to "brag" about I suppose.

I don't mean to say that any of the people who've posted their cats so far in this thread don't care about their cats - I mean that some breeders lose sight of what a breeder is supposed to be selling. Healthy cats with good temperament. I can't imagine having gunky eyes and bad breathing (or a mouth that's stuck open, bless that poor little soul) even do you any good rather than harm in the show ring. So why do it? Why not research genetics properly? I would much, much rather someone breed a crossbreed (say you breed a Persian with a Ragdoll, then breed the resulting cat with a purebred Persian... diluting the lines somewhat can be good) and fetch less money for them than have them purposely breed cats with health problems that cost more for the owner and will end in some form of heartbreak.

I'm sorry - I'm sure they're all lovely cats and I myself care far more for the personality of my cats than for their looks (although that does not explain why the extraordinarily stunning ones always find their way to my door ;)). I also think, while I'm not fond of flat-faced cats myself as far as their faces go, that all the cats shown have lovely coats, and that every cat has some physical point where they're exceedingly beautiful - and if not, then they're sure to have a unique and loveable character. And I believe 100% that personality, not looks, should be the basis of your relationship with your cats.

But I also believe that the breeding community is rife with people who breed for looks (and subsequently for money) and who disregard the health problems that will invariably arise when you overbreed.

How many of us have purebreeds who need a different diet from our moggies because of their sensitive tummies? I accept that a lot of purebreeds have sensitive tummies - what I don't accept is that this is a necessary consequence of breeding.

The main thing that bothers me about it is that we have the overbreeding of dogs, which is at this point worse than that of cats. We've seen what happens when you overbreed. So why haven't we learned?

And I'm afraid the answer is, as always... Money. The saddest and ugliest part of human society.

Once again, all the cats shown look like lovely little characters. I'm not so small-minded as to let my aesthetic dislike of flat faces cloud my vision of what a cat should be, which has nothing to do with what it should look like. But I do find it absolutely disgraceful that people will purposely breed animals without a moment's consideration for the quality of life they're imparting on them.

dandysmom
02-06-2006, 02:50 AM
I have strong opinions on this: very much dislike what breeders have done to breeds like Persians and Siamese...it is simply not fair to propagate animals with health problems!! And aesthetically, I simply do not find extreme flat faced Persians or skinny tubular Siamese at all attractive. But, what wins at the shows is what they're going to strive for.....pity...:cry:

PurpleJackdaw
02-06-2006, 11:04 AM
As with any animal I dont think any should be bred that will suffer health problems due to the way people want them to look ,In America they seem to be alot more extreme in the way they want to breed for certain looks without worrying too much about how it will affect an animals health or quality of life ,just look at "twisty cats" that some people are choosing to breed :(

Booktigger
02-06-2006, 02:44 PM
I have never been a fan of PErsians, and part of it is their face, but there are some on here that I find stunning, and I suppose that could be down to misconceptions on my part. I don't believe in breeding any animals that can have serious health probs, or any that wouldn't be able to survive in the wild.

Hreow
02-06-2006, 03:13 PM
... or any that wouldn't be able to survive in the wild.

That would be any and all house-cats, then. :grin: Can't see Rover surviving for more than a day or two at best, he's such a baby at times. I agree that they have to be "functional cats" and I know what you mean even if I can't find the precise words to fit it either. Not without using a dictionary-and-a-half. : /

random
02-06-2006, 03:31 PM
I have a siamese and when I chose her, well when I was looking for a breeder, I tried to find someone who bred siamese more like how they used to be, not to over exagerated. When I first fell in love with the breed it was some years ago, and it's obvious the "new" type siamese are a lot different to what I fell in love with. She has no health problems so far and is a very lively happy and healthy girl. She is very slender and of course, not to everyones taste, but I think she is beautiful. :D

Kay
24-06-2006, 03:21 PM
I have thought long and hard about posting a reply on this thread being a breeder and the way people have been slated on this forum lately.

I agree there are some breeders out there, and I use the word breeder loosely for these people, who do breed purely for money with no concern as to what their lines are throwing. I have to point out however that not all ultra persians have problems with breathing, eating or their eyes and that quite a few of the less typy persians do. Take mine for instance. I have 9 persians, as many of you know, 4 of which are ultra and the other 5 the older type. I will take each cat in turn so bear with me. Firstly Tate he is ultra doesn't have problems breathing and certainly no problems eating his eyes need cleaning once or twice a week. He is a Champion and did extremely well in the show ring. He is now retired.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Tilsie/Tate.jpg

Next there is Tilly not ultra and again no problems at all. She was not shown due to her shady coat.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Tilsie/Tilly4.jpg

Kisses is ultra and needs a great deal of care with her eyes but no other problems. They need cleaning several times a day for this reason her breeder neutered her and I bought her for showing. This act shows there are responsible breeders out there that are trying to keep the type but get rid of health issues. She did really well in the shows and made Premier. At present she is out of coat but I hope to show her again. The following picture shows that with the right care she does not suffer with her eyes.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Tilsie/Kisses.jpg

Leila is ultra has no problems other than a weekly clean of her eyes and was also shown until her eye colour faded. She too made Champion.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Tilsie/lEILA2.jpg

Jilly, Phoebe and Eddie are siblings albeit from different litters. Neither of them are ultra have no problems breathing and eating and Jilly has lovely clear eyes the other two do have runny eyes that need daily attantion. This trait appears to have come from the mothers side as Tate has fathered kittens by other girls and this problem has never happened before only when mated to Tilly and only with these two. This is not bad considering they have had a total of 12 kittens together. Tilly has know retired from breeding. Unfortunately I only have a pic of Jilly loaded on photobucket. I showed Jilly once and she got her CC but since then her coat has shaded, Phoebe doesn't like travelling so I won't show her and Eddie is like his mother far too shaded.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Tilsie/Jilly1.jpg

Angel is somewhere in the middle on type. I did show her a few times as a kitten but she hated it and I won't put a cat through that if they aren't totally at ease. She has no problems breathing, eating but does need her eyes cleaning daily. Sorry no photo of Angel.

Lastly I have Cory who is definitely ultra. He has no problems breathing and definitely no eating problems, he is a bit of a pig to be truthful :lol: :lol: . His eyes need a clean once or twice a week and are definitely not a problem. As most of you know I am showing Cory at the moment with a great deal of success.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Tilsie/CORY10.jpg

Therefore I have 1 out of 4 ultra type cats that have bad eyes but 3 out of 5 non-ultra that have bad eyes. Maybe I am lucky but I think this proves that with careful breeding you can get the ultra type without the serious eye problems. I would not continue with a line that was showing any of the mentioned health problems and all reputable breeders are of the same mind. We are here not to make money but to breed lovely trouble free cats with excellent temperments of which the Persian excels. I understand people have opinions on what is a nice looking cat but I argue with anyone who says these pic are not of beautiful healthy cats.

Sorry about the length of this posting. :oops: :oops:

Rosie
26-06-2006, 02:32 PM
Compared with the dog world, I think cats have been fortunate up to now in (mostly) not being bred to extreme and picking up associated health problems.

Totally agree. I love dogs and have seen the before and after photos of such breeds as the bulldog (to me the dog equivalent of the persian). The bulldog used to be much slimmer, have longer legs and not have the squashed face. Bulldogs cannot give birth naturally anymore because of breathing problems etc. Lets hope this does not happen to the persian.