Territorial unneutered tom.

[Snoof]

So Sweep has been coming in and such, and at first he and Ninja got along very well and Ninja would be happily sitting next to him while he ate the dry food (Sweep won't touch the wet).

Then we slowly noticed that Ninja was lessening his time in the house... Until today, when our friend C saw Sweep scaring Ninja away from the food bowls. I've moved his set down onto the floor rather than the ledge, so now Sweep can eat on the ledge and Ninja can eat on the floor or vice versa, and I stroked Ninja until Sweep was on his way out... Which was when Ninja skitted and legged it outside.
Previously, we thought it was because the weather was so nice as Ninja always goes outside a lot when that happens. Now we know it's because Sweep has become territorial about Ninja's house.

This is not something we can tolerate, especially given Ninja's previous behavioural issues.

Ninja comes first - and while I'm glad I got to pet him and reassure him that I am still his human and it's still his house, I don't know what to do.

We will be trapping Sweep and taking him to the vet early next week (catflap is being put in on Saturday, then we're leaving it propped up with clothespegs for a few days before putting it down). Hopefully we'll be able to get him neutered soon after that, but once we've got him trapped I'm keeping him in a separate room by himself. We will be going in lots to give him company and he will have food, toys, and a litterbox.

Here's what I want to know: will this behaviour stop when Sweep's neutered? I know it takes about a month for the hormones to settle down after neutering, but I want to know if it's worth us trying to keep him or if it would be better if we gave him to the rescue. Will he, in other words, stop being so damned territorial? He's much bigger than Ninja and obviously, due to his possession of the magical testicles, much more aggressive as well.

I don't understand how come they used to get along and Sweep then started dominating massively. I'm worried that it might be because we petted him and made it clear that it was ok for him to consider this his house. I don't know what other course of action we could have taken, though - and Ninja is still ok now and would, I think, easily fall back into his previous behaviour once Sweep is eliminated from the equation (at least for the time being and until he's a proper neutered cat with the hormones of one). But I don't think he'll be ok if he has to put up with it on a long-term basis and I wouldn't make him do that anyway.

I would love to give Sweep a home, and so would Matt, but I'm somewhat worried that Ninja will now associate Sweep with dominance. Will the roles they seem to have fallen into change when Sweep is neutered? Is there any chance we can make it work without giving Sweep up to the rescue?

I know that with rats, if you get one rat dominating the other too much (males) you can get the dominant one neutered and it will generally change the hierarchy and make them much more peaceful - and will frequently allow them to live together whereas previously they couldn't. But I have always had my cats neutered before the problematic age, and if it's likely to continue being too stressful for Ninja because it's been left too late to neuter Sweep and turn him into a laid-back boy, I would rather not risk making Ninja miserable - I feel that my first responsibility is to him.

[Kazz]

I am not so sure about dominance but given Ninja's history I am not sure I would risk upsetting him by taking on Sweep.

I may be being harsh and maybe someone will say different but Ninja is not your average cat, he's extra special and needs that little extra thought. He sounds as if Sweep is in charge, if Ninja hadn't go the issues he had I ouldsay let them sort it out and both would end up amicable.

What does your gut instinct tell you?

[Fran]

I'm not really sure how the balance will alter once Sweep is neutered. Think I would get him neutered, give the hormones time to settle then see how things go..

[yola]

I would go with what Fran says too. Although there may always be some jostling for position, I strongly suspect that once Sweep is neutered he will become less inclined to dominate Ninja.

I would do the neutering as soon as you possibly can so they can settle down and you can make an assessment as to how the relationship is progressing and whether Ninja does accept Sweeps presence or indeed whether he needs to be an 'only cat'.

[Snoof]

The thing is Kazz, I would agree with you in a heartbeat - but Ninja adored Sweep at first (and Sweep has been coming here for a good few months now). He was happy as a clam - until Sweep decided the house was his and so was the food. I'm also confused because they were playing with each other maybe a week ago (I could be wrong on the timing, but not by much). I understand that unneutered toms are frequently more heavy-handed than neutered ones, but it's a shift in personality that really confounds me.

Nevertheless, I suspect you may be right. I was surprised to see Ninja get along so well with another grown male, nevermind an unneutered one, and I guess it was too good to be true.

I'm not saying my mind's made up, which it isn't, but I do think I'm leaning more heavily towards your "side"... It's sad, and I will be ringing the rescue and asking them for their advice as well, but it tore into my heart when I realised he'd been terrorising my little guy. Ninja's had enough to deal with and as soon as I can, I will be sorting this out and removing Sweep from him at the very least for the time being. He doesn't need to be bullied by a cat now on top of all the humans who've done the job quite nicely (:mad:) in the first year of his life.

Ninja loves other cats, frequently tries to get two-doors-down's female in here, but never manages (she's too skittish). The thing I'm thinking is, Sweep is an adult cat and so is Ninja (well, Ninja is 2 but for all intents and purposes...) and that's always going to be more difficult especially as they're both male.

I do have to say, and I feel somewhat guilty about this, that I was delighted to see him run to me and get comfort from my presence. I know he still ran away when Sweep got too close, but knowing he took some courage from my presence and my stroking is yet another step in the right direction.

[Kazz]

Now you see of all the cats I read about on here your Ninja sounds so much like my Oscar its untrue.

Although Oscar lived with me from kittenhood his start in life and introduction to people was so harsh and horribly cruel, I really think his "limit" on acceptance people wise was me for many years yet over the years this increased to include close family. :? His confidence with people increased as the years passed.

But on occasion over the years he brought friends (cats) home but if that cat got too close to me and/or I showed any interest even passing such as a stroke to the stray cat Oscar would beat the poor cat senseless, as long as I tolerated the cats BUT showed not an iota of "affection" towards them he was happy to let them visit but only visit.:shock: Any kindness shown by me and they were evicted. But I had Cleo and he was more than happy to share me with her but she was here from the start.

Maybe as the years pass Ninja will improve like Oscar did.

I have a soft spot for Ninja maybe because I think of him as very like "Oscar" sorry. :roll:

But I think you have a good chance with the kittens. :-D And by the way Oscar was neutured and the visitors were unneutured Toms many times.

But try what you think, you know the situation best.

[Hreow]

I think you're right about the petting. It made your house a place that was worth fighting for. Warmth, comfort, food and love - just what he needed.

Go ahead with you plan. Have him neutered and then kept apart for a while. He'll need to be somewhere, even if he is to be rehomed, and you can see how things woork out when the testes are no longer a part of the equation. Now that you know of the problem, you can see if they can solve it, and otherwise you'll do the right thing and rehome Sweep. You've given him the chance to be *somebody*'s cat, just perhaps not yours.

[Snoof]

Kazz, I see what you mean, except that Ninja being much smaller than Sweep doesn't stand a chance. He is immensely clever though - just now when I went to feed him he was sat by the hole they use for a door at the moment - swiping at Sweep every time he tried to come in! I must say, that idea might never even have occurred to me, so while I don't want to see Sweep hard done by, I'm also sort of proud of Ninja!

I don't know who's starting all of this nonsense, but I also suspect that Sweep being unneutered may be making Ninja less accepting of him as well, given he sort of has an upper hand there (in cat terms - in my heart I suspect no cat will ever come quite to Ninja's level given everything he and I went through to get him to be the way he is).

I think I will trap Sweep and get him neutered, then let him recover at my house (in a room where Ninja never goes but with plenty of food and entertainment and frequent visits). I'll decide what to do when that's sorted, because I do want him to get neutered regardless - even if it ends up being better if we just let him go back out where he's used to roaming (which I doubt - he's fairly sociable with humans even now, so I think he would benefit from a home) it'll be much better for the cat population at large and Sweep in the specific if he's neutered, and it'll save whoever gets him the trouble, the expense, and the option of not having it done.

I'm also contemplating the option of trying to find him a new home now, already. Given his striking appearance, I don't think it should be that hard to do, and if I find a home for him that I'm happy giving him to then I would be quite happy. The thing I'm having trouble with is not letting him go - especially with him being mean to Ninja now - but letting him go back to not having a home.

[Kazz]

Get him"done" and see how it goes, you never know they may become allies, sweeps muscle and Ninja's brains invincible ;)

[Snoof]

Oh sure, and then they'll nick my bank card and buy scratching posts on ebay together, using Sweep's superior muscle power to "convince" the postman to deliver it to the catflap :lol:

[smudgley]

It sounds to me as like classic behaviour, when Sweep first came into your house he didn't know what was what, who was who or where the boundaries were. then he comes in, starts eating the food, feels comfortable about it, starts feeling his feet, then suddenly - BINGO- he's got his feet under the table, he knows what's what & then he starts acting like a dominant Tom cat & trying to establish who's boss out of him & Ninja. I agree with fran - I'd get him neutered & see what happens, but I think a lot depends on his age - a wise old Tom may not change his ways even after neutering. But hopefully he will.
At work we place young dogs (12 months old) with new families, we see the same pattern each time. New home, new people, not sure what's what, who's in charge, so it's "best behaviour" for 2 weeks, then they get comfy realise it's ok in the new home & try & see what they can get away with - sometimes pushing the boundaries as far as they can! I know we shouldn't compare dogs/cats but it's very similar behaviour.

[Hreow]

Oh sure, and then they'll nick my bank card and buy scratching posts on ebay together, using Sweep's superior muscle power to "convince" the postman to deliver it to the catflap :lol:


**And** entice those shy females in for a night of unlimited fish and cream! :-) They'll take over the PC for naps and hamster-sudoku as well, mark my words... :grin:

I can't do anything for Sweep logdgings-wise, but do let me know if a donation towards the neutering, food, extra toys etc. would be useful. Not implying that you can't take care of him yourself, of course. :-D

[dinahsmum]

Nothing to add to any of the foregoing, so will just say 'Good luck'

[yola]

I'd just like to add that my originally un-neutered stray Tom (Ferdy), was king of all he surveyed. He really was quite a belligerent and bossy old ratbag. However, once neutered he turned into the proverbial pussy cat and would try and play with the persians. He never got above his station (Balie, was, is and always will be alpha cat), but occasionally tried to 'push the envelope' to see if he could gt anywhere.

What I'm saying is that, post-neutering, he changed almost overnight from a bruiser into a gentle, domesticated cuddle-bug who slotted into his place within the cat heirarchy quite happily.

[Snoof]

Thank you all for your experience and expertise. Smudgley, that's what I figured as well. Instinct-wise, that's probably a pretty good one (if your driving force in life is to make sure your genetic material survives).

Hreow - thank you for offering, it's very kind of you :-) But we're all right, and since all Sweep touches is dry food he really isn't that expensive. I don't know why he won't eat the wet, but he really doesn't want it :smt102 Ninja eats both, but definitely more wet food, so they balance each other out pretty well.

Thanks DM and Yola - and Yola, your story encourages me somewhat. I will sit Matt down and discuss what the best course of action is, as I suspect he'd like to give Sweep a chance in our house if we can. There again, he was impressed and amused by Ninja's scheme to keep Sweep out by swiping at him every time he sticks his nose in and does understand that Ninja's emotional well-being has to come first - before giving Sweep a home in our house, at least. I'll bring up the possibility of finding him a home ourselves and see how he feels about it.

He would never admit it, but I think he might be even more of a stray-taker-inner than I am, when it comes to cats :roll: :lol: Problem is, he just wants to take them in and doesn't really worry about how it affects things until it's all pointed out to him, so I'll have to do that.

Nevertheless, I think the support I gave Ninja helped him realise that I am his human and this is his house, and he's perfectly in the right both in being here and in defending it - because I really can't and won't fault him for doing either. It shows the remarkable progress he's making that my support of him led him to be braver and to take possession of what's rightfully his, and I love him even more for it. I hope he realises that neither of those things will ever change - the reason we want to get kittens is because then he can teach them it's his terrain and he's the boss without too much protest from them (and as we will be getting them altered well before sexual maturity it should remain no problem).

Thank you all again for the kind words and the help - don't know what I would've done if all this had happened and I didn't have this forum to ask :shock: Now I do wish it were Saturday so we could put the catflap in and pin it up (was it Kazz or Kay who told me how to do that with clothespegs? I can't remember, but I'm still grateful!) so Ninja can get used to it before we put it down (not sure he's ever used one before as our rescue isn't as posh as Smudgley Towers and doesn't have outside runs for cats at the moment - they're building a new cattery, however). Then we'll be trapping Sweep and scheduling him in for a neutering, and we'll take it from there.

[Donna]

Hope things go to plan. Keep us updated!

[Snoof]

Quick update before I run out the door for an extraordinarily (for me) early morning.

I got out of the bathroom just as Ninja was coming downstairs from his nightly rampage upstairs on the top floor, this morning, so we descended the stairs together. Sweep was lying on a swivel chair just inside Matt's study, looking very comfortably up at me, and I scratched him before going on to pet Ninja.

Sweep followed us into the kitchen, and then Ninja twined around my legs and feet (properly, for the first time - he's rubbed against them before while I was standing up but never spun that tight web of circles and meowing around them like a lot of hungry cats will do :-D) while Sweep sat on the doorstep to the conservatory (which they eat in) voicing his loud, hard meows every once in a while when he thought I was flagging :lol:

I put some food up on the ledge first, just because Sweep likes to eat there and I thought he could eat up there and Ninja could eat on the floor (and he's so cute when he prepares to jump up onto the ledge, assuming Sidney-esque positions while he calculates his leap) as they've had at least two rows about food.

I moved onto the bowls on the floor (dry food needed topping up as well as wet food doling out) and Sweep jumped down and started eating the dry food as I squeezed out the pouch of wet food, while Ninja rubbed gently against my bum :lol:

Then they ate companionably side by side until Sweep heard something outside that needed killing!

They've not had any trouble since the last time I posted, and while Ninja was very cautious around Sweep and Sweep stole all the wet food when he could (but Ninja comes and gets me when he's not had any wet food, so he got to eat on his own), but then they just kind of stopped. They seem to've accepted each other, now.

This means when we get Sweep neutered, we may just put him in the bathroom until he's feeling better (all my past cats have felt pretty bad from the anaesthetic, but I think they were let go by the vet sooner than they are here, since nobody seems to have that issue here) and just let him out in the house again. I think they just needed to hammer out a hierarchy as housecats, but I'm going to keep watching them and make sure they're certain about how well they get along. I think if they're doing ok now, it may be easier on them if Sweep doesn't have to be reintroduced later, if that makes sense.

They make quite a sight together, but they're back to the behaviour they exhibited toward each other when Ninja first brought Sweep home, and if they continue I think it's all going to be fine.

Either way, it was a very precious moment. Just me, being tagteamed by two "very, very hungry cats" and them twining around each other to make sure I saw them as a coalition of starving felines :lol:

[Fran]

I'm so pleased that it is working out Snoof!! Incidently, regarding the anaesthetic. Our vets now offer a newer, safer type of anaesthetic which doesn't seem to affect the cats so much, they come round much quicker and it's almost as if they haven't had an anaesthetic at all! Our vets do charge quite a bit more money if you want them to use this type but I honestly think it is worth every penny. Might be worth asking you vet if they do anything similar?

[Hreow]

Granny - eggs - I know... but make sure you reintroduce Sweep slowly so that they don't have a spat again because he smells strangely from the vet's.

Those two will be the bane of your existance from now on, then. :grin: I'm **so** glad it was just a sorting-out-who's-boss squabble.
With your ability to see ahead and plan for eventualities, it's easy to see why you have a household of (mostly) happy cats.

[Sweet]

Fingers and paws crossed here everything will turn out fine :) x

[Snoof]

Thanks everyone. They seem happy enough, and Sweep has been sleeping on a chair in the study (by the door to the halfway). Every morning I give him cuddles while he's lying there, and today he did the whole stretching-and-cuddling thing like a happy kitty.

I also got some pictures of him, because of course having posted a slew of pictures of Ninja, I then felt terribly guilty for leaving Sweep out :lol: