Moggies... is it ever right to breed them? [Archive]

Snoof

12-05-2006, 02:09 PM

I'm not firmly on either side of the fence here. I feel it is fine to breed moggies if you are adhering to the same standards a pedigree breeder is expected to adhere to. Do you know enough about both parents to reasonably expect kits with good temperaments? Are you willing to screen potential owners rigorously, and to take back any kittens in the event that something goes wrong? That is, if all the kittens came back to you because things didn't work out with their owners, would you be willing and able to take them back in and keep them as your own or go through the process of rehoming them yourself? Unlikely worst-case scenario, but it's something you could need to do.

If any part of your plan involves giving them to a rescue if things don't go as planned, then no they should not be bred. And if you don't or can't control who the parents will be, you have even less business breeding them.

Now, some people here have litters from cats who arrived already pregnant. Terminating those pregnancies is an intensely personal choice I wouldn't fault anyone for. But initiating them without being as responsible about it as you'd expect from a breeder of the single most expensive pedigree breed... Why are the guidelines there? Are they there because pedigrees are more valuable than others? No. They're there because they should speak for themselves, but moggie breeding cannot be controlled - pedigree breeders can at least be made to face some sort of consequence for not acting responsibly.

Some people will take this to mean moggies have less rights to being born than pedigrees. I know that was my initial take on it, and my opinion on this continues to be formed as I learn more and more about cats of various breeds and non-breeds, and as I become more aware of the desperate situation rescues are in.

The issue is not that moggies have fewer rights to being born. The issue is that moggies have just as much of a right to a happy, healthy life being a happy, healthy cat as pedigrees do... But moggie breeding is harder to control. So we must do it ourselves and either breed responsibly in every detail or not breed at all.

Naomi

12-05-2006, 03:49 PM

I'm not really for the purposeful breeding of moggies. I don't really see the need

I really detest those who purposefully kick the cat out when she's in call because they are too darned lazy to get the cat spayed and can't stand the noise of a cat in call knowing full well she's 99% gonna get caught and have kittens, that's just plain stupidity. I had a friend who did this and moaned everytime her cats had kittens :roll:

Accidental litters happen, eg cat escapes un-noticed out of the door, we've all seen it when the kids have inadvertantly left a door open or, in this weather, windows are open to let in some fresh air but even kittens from 'accidental' litters have their own individual right to a happy life.

It is then the owner's right to choose whether they terminate their cats pregnancy or not.

dinahsmum

12-05-2006, 04:06 PM

I think - every cat a wanted cat, every kitten a wanted kitten - is a better maxim than no moggie kittens (Eugenics anyone? I couldn't happen anyway. If a 'law' like that came about it would be about law number 974 of such an authoritarian regime I wouldn't want to live in it.)
I'll come back with more later - sorry I don't have time to do a thoughtful post at the mo.

Kim

12-05-2006, 04:21 PM

I cannot see the need for this at all. For several years I have worked voluntarily in a rescue centre and seen the hard and heart wrenching work involved in re-homing. In the Spring/Summer we are inundated with kittens. I think part of responsible ownership is to neuter. If you want a mog, you can get them in rescue centres, no need to breed your own. :? Obviously my comments on the pictures thread caused offence; this was not my intention but this is something I feel very strongly about. I really thought most of us here felt much the same, :( I was obviously wrong as so many of you oooed & ahhed over the photos. All the animal charities are pro neutering and apart from the obvious reasons there are also medical reasons why neutering is favourable as there are in dogs too. Accidents happen, sure, but if you neuter, then that insures they will not happen.

dinahsmum

12-05-2006, 04:30 PM

If there were no moggie kittens bred there would be no moggies anywhere in 25 years time. I wouldn't be looking forward to picking up my babies next month, for their 20+ years of love.

It's just too draconian - like saying lets not allow any people to have babies, because some are neglected or treated badly.

I wholeheartedly agree that irresponsible/uncaring or financially inspired breeding of pets is to be discouraged whenever possible.

If this board 'flames' whenever moggie kittens are mentioned it will become like some of the dog forums, where well meaning but unsure people are made to feel like **** for asking a question. By all means use threads like these, or the 'to spay or not to spay' threads to spread the word about responsible pet ownership and the ongoing responsibility for any animals bred.

Kim

12-05-2006, 04:38 PM

[quote=dinahsmum]If there were no moggie kittens bred there would be no moggies anywhere in 25 years time. I wouldn't be looking forward to picking up my babies next month, for their 20+ years of love.

Do you honestly believe this will ever happen? - I don't.

I have no objections whatsoever to people asking questions about moggies, or discussing them either. I have 3 moggies myself and had many more before them (rescues). However, my point was by allowing the post it was in a way saying purposeful breeding of moggies is acceptable. This was my point. I didn't mean to cause offence, so sorry if you took any. :oops:

Luke

12-05-2006, 04:38 PM

I'm staying on my soap box partly for this one-but i'm with DM, would those who want every moggie speyed/neutered be hapy when there are no moggies then?

*Also..something i can't quite get my head around is when people voice their concerns over moggie litters and how the rescue shelters are bursting etc, when these people so often have pedigree cats. Surely if they care as much as they say they would go and adopt a moggie from the shelter?
And i know it isn't allways that simple to adopt a moggie from a shelter..due to various picky homing things, so what happens to those who want a moggie but CAN'T rescue one? They go catless?!?

*please note i am not reffering to any member of catpages in particular, merely an observation:)

dinahsmum

12-05-2006, 04:43 PM

*Smiling at Luke* - wise beyond his years! :)

It is difficult when the 'community' of CatPages goes ballistic. I hate it. Don't mind a reasoned discussion though, and am happy to continue this or similar.

Sue

12-05-2006, 05:05 PM

I hate heated debates..:? but i wanted to say how i feel.

I have a friend who has a shelter (where i got my Sophie from:D ), and i hear of her stories of over crowding, and having phonecalls from folk who's cat has had kittens and needs rid of them, or kittens found in the most amazing places...some you just know where put there in the hope of never being found:( ...and i find it heart wrenching. So i can fully understand why people who are in rescue are so passionate about nueturing. There will never be a risk of running out of moggies, because not everyone will get there cat done, and there will always be ferals who kittens are made tame.

If a person is responsible, and does their research into how to deal with a pregnant cat, how to care for newborn kittens, what to do if there are problems and has the finance to make sure those kittens and the mother are able to get all the necassary vet treatment, and also be able to make sure those kittens go to decent home, then i see no harm.

However, you then have the people who do it purely for financial gain, and will make a female have litter after litter...this i feel is irrisponsable, and should not be encouraged.

Personally, i would never breed any cat i had, as i have no knowledge of what to do, or the finance to care for the cat and kittens.

Snoof

12-05-2006, 05:11 PM

I don't think we'll ever run out of moggies. I think if people were responsible and either bred responsibly or got their cats altered, the number of moggies in rescues would go down massively, but we wouldn't run out of moggies. I know of people who had litters every year but never once gave a single cat to a rescue and always found good homes for the kittens (our first cat came from them). The problem, in my opinion, lies with people who don't breed responsibly or breed for the wrong reasons - or just fail to alter their cats and cause numerous litters to be born as a result without even caring for the kittens resulting.

PurpleJackdaw

12-05-2006, 05:26 PM

Seeing as this thread was started due to me posting pictures of Tillys kittens I had better give my side of the story

I did think very hard over the matter and as you know I decided to go ahead with a litter ,Tilly will be spayed after the kittens are weaned ,the kittens will be raised in the house and want for nothing as will their mother ,They will only be rehomed to people I feel can give them a good home and I will offer any advice I can to them and if things go wrong I will take the kittens back and rehome them to a more suitable home or keep them
I dont feel the only cats to be alowed to be born should be pedigree ones as many people do not want a pedigree cat with the risk of them being stolen if they let their cats outside
I totally agree that many "moggies" should not be born to people who care little for their cats or cant be bothered to get them neutered or do it for profit
As long as breeding is done for the right reasons and with the care of the cats being the most important thing
Why is it deemed fine for some people to churn out litter after litter of "Pedigree" cats but totally wrong for one well cared for litter of "Moggies" to be born ?
Pedigree cats do also end up in rescue centers
I have said my piece on the matter and feel upset enough at the attacks directed at me so I will say no more on the matter

Hreow

12-05-2006, 05:33 PM

I think we all *do* feel very strongly about unwanted kittens and cats. Nobody here thinks they're a good idea. I think we can debate the issue here until we are blue in the face, come up with cast-iron reasons, and it still won't change a thing, because I'd be willing to be that 99% of us are responsible about our cats.

I will do my very best to help limit the incessant flow of kittens to rescue-centers by neutering my animals, telling anyone I can about the benefits (only not *just* after they've had a litter - more effective later (kittens are cute to anyone, hooligan teen-cats less so)), donating as much money as I can afford to charities who neuter feral and uncared for cats and, bar Rover who was a luxury I'm very glad I get to experience, I have and will adopt second-hand cats. And who knows, I may even get to be mad cat-woman who looks after a sea of fur, if I outlive my better half. :-)

Emm

12-05-2006, 06:16 PM

I cannot see anything wrong with breeding moggies - so long as you are responsible and find homes for your kittens, agree to take them back if they are not wanted and not overbreed your female.

I have only ever had moggies. If I were to get another cat then it would be another moggy and it would have to be a kitten - I have done the rescuing an older cat and it was very difficult and I won't put all my animals through that again.

Pedigree cats also end up in rescue. Look at the Bengal Rescue on here - they can't cope with the amount of cats they need to re-home and yet they are pedigree cats!

EmmaG

12-05-2006, 06:29 PM

Well I know we keep hearing of there being so many unwanted kittens and cats but how come when I wanted to get a kitten I couldn't find one for love nor money?? This has happened both times I have wanted a kitten, perhaps it must be where I live but there are hardly any adverts for cats or kittens in the papers. Even when I go to the RSPCA centre now they hardly have any kittens.

However I do believe that people should spay their female cats and neuter their male cats, both of my cats are done and so will any future cats, as I believe this to be in their best interests health wise.

I don't have a problem with anybody on catpages posting photos up of their kittens moggies for otherwise.

Also I own two moggies, at the time I didn't want purebreeds, I think as long as that person is looking after both the mother cat and kittens and they are not being irresponsible then I personally have no problems with seeing threads about moggie kittens.

borderdawn

12-05-2006, 06:39 PM

Erm, I think you now how I feel!

Luke.
Yes your post was directed at me, whilst I value your opinion, I think at your age such decisions would not be yours to make. I have pedigree Cats, 2 of them, my other 4 Cats, past and present were rescue moggies, one was a "cross breed" bred by an idiot, I told you of him at the time.

To even say that there will not be any more moggies is ludicrous, there are plenty of silly people breeding them willy nilly, rescue centres are full of them, always will be, how responsible is it to breed more, when all "dog" people on here especially, wouldnt consider breeding a mongrel?

Health tests go out the window too, I bet most of the moggy litters have unknown fathers, no health tests, possible deadly disease carrier etc... Pedigree Cat breeders, at least the good ones will have all relevant health tests completed with favourable results BEFORE breeding, not let the Cat out and hope for the best!

Many moggy litters are fathered by feral Cats, my god the majority of those are probably carriers of the killer diseases if ever there were any!

So no, I dont think it is ever "right" to purposely breed moggies when this world is in dire straits as far as unwanted animals is concerned, and like I said if we were discussing breeding mongrels, there are not a lot that would think it right at all!
Dawn.

Luke

12-05-2006, 06:42 PM

borderdawn

12-05-2006, 06:54 PM

Dont be so stupid Luke, now you are acting like a child, I said I valued your opinion and I do, I dont however think such decisions would be a childs to make.
Dawn.

Kim

12-05-2006, 07:03 PM

Well said Dawn - you always word things much better than me! (referring to your longer post btw!)

I have a pedigree cat too. He was bred by a responsible breeder and his parents had all the relevant health tests. He was vaccinated & insured before I had him at 12 weeks old and I had to sign an agreement saying I wouldn't breed using him. I have seen kittens in the rescue centre with cat flu, diseases, eyes so sticky they can't open them. If we have mum she is often unhealthy too. Many times people have brought in kittens saying their cat has just had them and they don't know what to do with them! At least they were respnsble enough to bring them in, but the message about neutering is still not reaching so many, sadly.

I wont say any more as I have said enough on the matter and you all know my feelings by now.

I do realise that most people on here are very responsible owners and I apologise to anyone who feels I was attacking them personally.

Donna

12-05-2006, 07:05 PM

I dont care one way or other about moggies/pedigrees.

Only points I will raise to debate further are:

If there were no moggie litters then I would never of got Chloe or Misty as I couldnt afford a pedigree. So am glad they were there.

If we all stopped our moggies having kittens eventually there will be none. Just an elite group of pedigree kittens most people cannot afford.

Some people dont like pedigree cats. There are a lot of breeds that I really hate due to their specific look, but moggies come in all shapes and sizes so there are plenty to please everyone.

Thats just a few pointers - but the main question I want to know is:

Who says it is right to breed a pedigree but not a moggy? Both can end up in a shelter.

borderdawn

12-05-2006, 07:12 PM

Emm

12-05-2006, 07:15 PM

There are good and bad pedigree cat breeders

and

There are good and bad moggy cat breeders.

I don't think its fair to tarnish all with the same brush.

As for cats and dogs you cannot possibly compare the two - completely different animals.

Donna

12-05-2006, 07:17 PM

Hi Donna.

I think the comparative to pedigree Cats is that they are vaccinated, registered and insured FIRST, with health tests completed. We will NEVER see the end of moggy litters, I would HATE that, most of my Cats are rescue moggies and I will have more in the future, and yes pedigrees end up in rescue too, but what I cannot grasp is why people dont breed mongrel dogs and think its irresponsible to do so, yet its OK with Cats?

NO health tests.
Father in most cases NOT known.
Irresponsible, unnessesary and unfair on those who spend their days picking up the pieces!
DAwn.

I can see you point regarding unknown fathers and sickly cats Dawn - my Misty was an exact example. Sickly kitten by unknown cats taken on by me due to me feeling utterly disgusted at her so far life. I feel I have done a good thing by taking her in.

I would have to save for months for a pedigree and would never of had a cat otherwise.

Also, my mum had a mongrel dog and she was really cute. She was speyed straight away but I assumed this problem was as big in both species.

borderdawn

12-05-2006, 07:18 PM

Why can you not compare the two Emm? They are both our pets and we are constantly going on about responsible dog breeding from health tested parents etc. should we discard our feelings for dogs when we consider cats?
Dawn.

Emm

12-05-2006, 07:27 PM

Snoof

12-05-2006, 07:32 PM

I don't think anyone here wants there to be no moggie litters, and/or no moggies. I don't know anyone who has ever said to me that my cats were worth less because they were moggies (including of course past and present). I don't know anyone who thinks that way - what makes a cat special isn't who their parents were, but, I feel, who they are (and who - not what, although we all may get a cat because of looks at some point they rapidly dwindle in importance as the personality asserts itself).

But there has to be a way to stop there being so many moggies that rescue centres are overflowing with them. Yes, there are pedigrees who end up in rescues, but their numbers are far smaller in comparison. A lot of them go to breed-specific rescues, but you won't find that many rescues devoted to a single specific breed, whereas just about anyone lives relatively near a bog-standard rescue in which the overwhelming majority of cats will be moggies.

While rescues do wonderful work and are fantastic initiatives, even they can't find a home for every single cat they get in - and some have waiting lists so lengthy they can't even take in every cat they're asked to take.

4 out of 6 of the cats I have owned, and the one I am about to take in have been rescues. The kittens I'm looking for I am looking to get from a rescue. Each one has a horror story attached to it - the very least of which is Sweep sleeping in a shed every night and getting so covered in motor oil she's actively unpleasant to the touch because it's gotten in every single bit of her fur.

If we could get the spay-or-neuter message out to more people, and make it more accessible to those who may be less able to afford it, then there would be fewer of those. Should those kittens not have been born, simply because they had a horrible life? Of course not - they all made and make wonderful cats. But while the ones adopted by good families went on to have wonderful lives, they prevented those families from adopting the others, who went on to continue their awful lives.

Only so many cats can be rescued from the cruelty of the lives those who bred them irresponsibly subjected them to. And if we could get the number of cats who were bred in such a fashion to decrease enough, we could maybe end up living in a world where every cat is wanted, and every cat has a home to go to at the end of the day and a warm lap to curl up in if they so choose.

It's a utopian dream, but the problem with idealism is not that its goals are unattainable - it's that, if you stop trying to attain them, you never get a step closer to how things should be.

Donna

12-05-2006, 07:36 PM

Perhaps if there were tougher penalties for people that have been caught abandoning their cats. Or guidelines about moggies and constant pregnancies and penalties if they get reported. Dont know how this could be imposed.

Emm

12-05-2006, 07:41 PM

I have always wanted them to bring back having a liscence to own an animal. The money raised by the liscences would go into aniaml welfare and raising awareness of being a responsible pet owner.

The same would be for breeders where you would have to apply for a liscence to be a breeder and you would not be able to breed unless there was a demand for the off spring - homes already waiting.

I know it sounds fanciful but in my head it would be the way to stop so amny unwanted animals.

borderdawn

12-05-2006, 07:56 PM

You can't compare the two because dogs have been bred and then cross bred many times to gain the end result of the breeds that we have today.

Cats - moggies have been around for generations - more or less more natural.

What diseases do you get by moggies breeding? (I'm asking this because I genuinely don't know) cat flu, FelV etc are all preventable by vaccination so this does not count because if you were responsibily breeding you would have your cat vaccinated.

When you allow dogs to breed without testing they are prone to many illnesses - heart problems, eye problems, HD, poor temperamants etc.

I've had moggies all my life - I don't see what is wrong with them.

Yes Emm, I agree with those diseases mentioned, but the majority of moggy litters are fathered by unknown Cats, those ones are highly unlikely NOT to have been vaccinated. Of course we can all have our Cats vaccinated whatever they are and they still have the virus! I dont think any of us test them first do we? The first sign of illness is what we see, then it will be too late if the Cat has been bred from or allowed to father litters.

Rescues generally do test for these diseases and its testament to the high probabilty of those diseases being apparant that they do so.

Do you know what really wrenched me? I went to the "Pet vaccination clinic" with a friend about 2yrs ago and they had a sanctuary for FIV Cats, all confined, some were pets, some were feral, yet they lived together in a super enclosure. It was so sad, they could NEVER live a normal life, never know what being a pet was all about, never know about being loved and cared for. All because of irresponsible breeding and feral colonies getting out of control, and I also believe that pet people that do not neuter contribute greatly to these colonies.

Dawn.

Emm

12-05-2006, 08:05 PM

I think maybe we are both agreeing kind off - I'm maybe just not coming across the right way.

If you were a responsible breeder then you would know who the father would be - its just you would be breeding a couple of moggy cats together instead of say a couple of persians.

I know what I'm thinking I'm just not maybe writing it in the right way.

For me personally I have all my animals neutered and spayed as soon as they are 6 months old - I have always done this and I always will.

borderdawn

12-05-2006, 08:09 PM

I know what you are saying Emm yes, and I think we agree on most points :D
Dawn.

dinahsmum

12-05-2006, 08:10 PM

I would never, ever, ever, breed an animal (because I couldn't trust myself to let other people take them and look after them properly for ever) but if no-one did then there would be no kittens for the majority of us on CP (i.e. moggies)
Am I hugely out of touch? Is the world full of FLV mogs? None of my prevoius 4 moggies have been ill, but I'm willing to be educated on this.

Emm

12-05-2006, 08:13 PM

I don't know how bad the problem is - but the rescue cat I had died from it :(

Kazz

12-05-2006, 08:13 PM

Well I've read everyones posts and think we are all almost singing from the same hymn sheet as cat people, we want healthy happy cats, and this is my two penneth worth.

I have moggies, always have, I've briefly/fleetingly considered getting a pedigree but can't really see it. Unlike dogs, a cat,is a cat,is a cat,moggie or pedigree (I may be being nieve here) but the cat hasn't been "altered" by man to any great extent to suit a certain place/job in the home.

I can't see us ever running out of moggies, although the idea of no unwanted kittens/cats would be fantastic. But to specificaly go out of your way to breed a moggie litter is not a way I would want to go, that is my own choice. Other people choose other ways, and thats fine. My cats have always been "done" and always will do. In the future I will home a kitten/adult cat from a rescue, or even a stray that just turns up.

However like DM I dislike catpages when we are in disaray however a healthy well balanced and sensible debate never hurt anyone, and I am willing to participate as long as it does not get personal.

Karen

dinahsmum

12-05-2006, 08:19 PM

I agree - much singing from a very similar hymn sheet! :)
We all put cat welfare top of the agenda.
It will help if this forum stays approachable and human. (How can baby kittens be a source of disharmony?)
Education, with a smile, and a helping hand, is the best way for CatPages. Others can beat the disciplinarian drum.

Booktigger

12-05-2006, 09:29 PM

I'm a bit late coming into this, but I see the main prob with breeding moggies is that quite a lot of time, the mum cat has accidentally got out, so the father is unknown, and so no idea if he has any health issues (and not just things like FIV, and FeLV - they think only about 2% of the cat population has FIV, although I dont know if they take ferals into account in that, things like heart conditions etc), or even if there is only one dad. And not all of the mum cats will have been vaccinated either, whereas proper breeders will screen cats, make sure they aren't overbred etc. I suppose if there was a way to make sure that they come from healthy parents, then it isn't too bad - except there are already so many kittens, it isn't properly kitten season yet and the rescue I foster for have had 12 kittens in, one mum and kittens were dumped, and one were given to us cos hte owner was pregnant and didn't want to deal with a pregnant cat. I think I would always go for moggies rather than pedigrees, I wouldn't want to risk them getting stolen and like soemone else, there are some pedigrees I dont like - one of which is a Persian, and there are an awful lot of them who end up in rescues, even my rescues vet said that being a pedigree doesn't stop them being ill treated, and with PErsians, or any longhaired cats, it seems to be more cos of grooming.

DiddyDawn

12-05-2006, 10:07 PM

Luke, you can still get pedigrees in rescue. I do cat rescue and mainly deal with ferals and I tame them down and rehome. Last year I had Maine Coons and Norwegians all from the same house, all young and all unspayed and intact. The first thing I did was get them done.....moggies or pedigrees, it doesn't matter to me, if they come here they are done......no ifs or buts. When you deal in rescue you realise how many unwanted cats or kittens there are. A few months ago a lady acquired 2 kittens from somewhere, I told her when they were big enough to contact me and I would get them done for her with no charge to herself. I saw her a couple of days ago and the female was due any day, in fact she had them yesterday.....this was caused by stupidity:mad: The kittens could either be the brother's or another cat as she was letting them roam as well. These are the people that annoy me and really get my back up. There is no excuse not to have your cats neutered unless of course you are a reputable breeder. It's alright saying let them have litters but what happens when there's no where for them to go? People go on about shelters that put young healthy animals to sleep and they blame the shelters........if owners got their pets neutered, we wouldn't be dealing with this problem and I wouldn't feel like I'm banging my head against the wall all the time.

random

12-05-2006, 10:20 PM

I would be personaly devestated if there were no more moggies, not all of us can pay £300+ for each cat easily...

DiddyDawn

12-05-2006, 10:20 PM

Erm, I think you now how I feel!

Many moggy litters are fathered by feral Cats, my god the majority of those are probably carriers of the killer diseases if ever there were any!

That is actually untrue. Any uneutered cat has a possibility of carrying killers diseases and it isn't as common in the feral colonies as people think. Any I've had tested have all come back negative up to now. Most feral colonies are made up of peoples pets that are uneutered and they've had to turn wild to survive and because their off spring aren't used to humans, the cycle continues. Don't give people the impression ferals are disease carriers, they have a hard enough life as it is without people making it worse, most are nice healthy cats that have a hard time.

On your other points I have to agree ;)

DiddyDawn

12-05-2006, 10:22 PM

I would be personaly devestated if there were no more moggies, not all of us can pay £300+ for each cat easily...

There are plenty in rescues ;)

borderdawn

12-05-2006, 10:24 PM

Is it possible in different parts, it is more common? It is publicised a lot round here and most of the cats from the sanctuary came from one colony and they are all positive. If you have negative testing ferals, thats excellent :D
Dawn.

random

12-05-2006, 10:33 PM

There are plenty in rescues ;)

I know I just got one today ;)

I ment if moggies ceased to be bred (which of course they never will)

DiddyDawn

12-05-2006, 10:35 PM

It depends really but most rescues only get the in house tests done which can show up as false positives, and some then euthanise even though there's a high chance the result is wrong. I've dealt with ferals the last 4 years and done a lot of colonies, if colonies are fixed it reduces the risks of any transmission of diseases as they are usually passed through bites, mating and saliva. This is the other good thing about neutering.......it stops the fighting and the mating thus reduces diseases. Publicising FIV/FeLV is a good thing as it encourages people to neuter their babes but some vets class it as a death sentance when it doesn't have to be.

bobbie3917

13-05-2006, 12:44 AM

I'm staying on my soap box partly for this one-but i'm with DM, would those who want every moggie speyed/neutered be hapy when there are no moggies then?

this coming from the young lad that is posting ads looking for a stud for his Cross breed cat?:roll: :shock: :roll:
there will still be moggies in 15 25 30 100+ years there area always be opps litters that will happen. from 2 pedigree cats that are diffrent breeds living in the same house, the in call queen that gets out the open window, the young kitten that is cout out before its owner knows it calling (its easy to miss in young kittens) there will be moggies about and good it will be a sad world without them.

i dont agree with having a she cat and letting it out until it is spayed. even if you are very careful your cat can start calling while out and about and be preg by the time she gets home. you might think that the cat only goes out while your in the garden what happens if the phone rings do u get her in? if not then she could be preg by the time you get back and you wouldnt know for at least 4 weeks

so i dont agree with breeding moggies but it will be a sad world with out them

bobbie3917

13-05-2006, 01:06 AM

You can't compare the two because dogs have been bred and then cross bred many times to gain the end result of the breeds that we have today.

so have cats how do you think we got some of the newer breeds? there are also many ppl out there cross breeding today trying to make new breeds not a lot of breeders agree with it but its being done

Cats - moggies have been around for generations - more or less more natural.

but you will find dogs that are 100% non pedigree same as moggies

What diseases do you get by moggies breeding? (I'm asking this because I genuinely don't know) cat flu, FelV etc are all preventable by vaccination so this does not count because if you were responsibily breeding you would have your cat vaccinated.

When you allow dogs to breed without testing they are prone to many illnesses - heart problems, eye problems, HD, poor temperamants etc.

cats moggy and pedigree can get all the same problems as dogs can(and more) if you breed two pedigree cats together they still both need all the health tests for that breed. maybe in moggies you dont know what to test for as you dont know the back round of your cat and if something does pop up its just said as that happend but how is any1 to know that is is not genetic if you have not tested the sire and dam?

I've had moggies all my life - I don't see what is wrong with them.

Canis-Equus

13-05-2006, 01:47 AM

Well, i started this i guess id better expand a bit on my feelings.

I have a moggy, i have always had moggies and i always will.

IF i knew my cats history, going back several generations, if he had clear tests for all teh things one might test a cat for, and if his 'wife' to be had the same, and they both had traits that would compliment one another, both in themselves and in each others 'pedigree's, despite both being moggies...... and IF i had more homes than there would be kittens, if i could guarantee that they would all be neutered, vaccinated etc....

Then i might consider breeding him, for the sole reason that he has the most fantastic temperament i have ever seen in a cat.

But no one can know all that about a moggy and its the pedigree that is the issue (bear in mind all animals have one, but not all of them are recorded!!) here, without knowing what the animals predecessors had, carried, displayed, you cannot know what will happen.

How do you know if your delightful queen carries a recessive gene for something horrific, and that her mystery husband carries that same recessive.

In a moggy, you dont.

In a pedigree the chances are you do.

This is not and never has been a 'are pedigrees better than moggies' issue. There are those of us who have never had a pedigree and would never set out to have one, and there are those of us who have never had a moggy and never would, and then there are the people who will always have both. Its not that ones better than the other, its that people have different desires!

Mongrel dogs and moggies are TOTALLY comparable, pedigree dogs, like pedigree cats (although more so) have been engineered by human beings - lets face it, a persian cat would not have that coat in the wild, and he wouldnt survive with such a short nose/face in competition with 'normal' cats at all (im NOT calling persians or other shortfaced cats 'abnormal' before anyone leaps on that).

People will always want a specific type of cat and thats where breeders come in, hopefully though their main aim is to improve the breed, and get it as near to the breed standard as is possible (which of course will never happen because everyones interpretation of that standard is slightly different).

One cannot have that same aim in a moggy because there ISNT a breed standard for moggies - so they cannot be breeding to improve the breed, to hope that the offspring are better than their parents....

Until such a time as there are NO feral cats, no front doors inadvertantly left open, no sneaky tom cats slinking in through a window someone forgot to shut, and all cat owners get their non pedigree cats neutered, there will ALWAYS be moggies and i for one am glad there will be, but i STILL do not want them purposely bred - asides from everything else, there are far more people who will take a free or cheap moggie kitten and discard it when its nto cute any more, than there are people who will buy a £300+ kitten and do the same thing.

I dont think ANY animal should be bred where the sole reason is money, or ignorance, be it pedigree or moggy!

Em

borderdawn

13-05-2006, 06:44 AM

this coming from the young lad that is posting ads looking for a stud for his Cross breed cat?:roll: :shock: :roll:
Very sad indeeed, especially when for the most part Luke says he cant even stroke her, what a terrible shame, and what a terrible thing to even consider passing that sort of temperament on. Now that is irresponsible!
Dawn.

Sweet

13-05-2006, 08:00 AM

Both my two are moggies:-

Violet was born on a farm, I had her from 4 wks, YES she was ill when she came to me, but with my love, care and attention - she made it thro!! and is now a loveable kitten.

Mau Mau was from Bristol Dogs/Cats Home in good condition but still a Moggie.

I do not have any further views except to say......I wouldnt have it any other way, I Love them both dearly and so do my family.

Julie x

Luke

13-05-2006, 08:29 AM

See this is what gets me on catpages nowdays-you never know when to back off!
What takes place outside of catpages is none of anyone's business TBH..we are allowed to lead our own lives without it being poked into by strangers who just happen to post on a forum..
Lets get one thing straight..i had been told by numerous knowledgable cat breeders and our own vet that a litter MAY give Elsa some focus, MAY settle her slightly..whilst remaining sceptical as a family we thought we would consider this, HOWEVER Elsa has chosen the life she is happy with and thats coming and going as she pleases..and in order for her to live this way she will be getting speyed ASAP for all of those out theres information:) Also, the adds were old, for those whom i actually talk to off the board would know how i had my doubts about this resolving any of Elsa's issues..and the fact of bringing life into this world with the state it is in:)
And i would like to thank Dawn, as it was something you said recentlly on an email about a cat you board (i think) that had similar frightned behaviour around people and how speying changed her/calmed her down etc that concreted in my mind that Elsa will be speyed-and it could stand a chance at helping with a few of her problems without the worry of new life in this world, so thanks!:D
And thats totally off topic and it shouldn't have been brought into this debate.
Nextlly...i would just like to say to those who have brought Elsa's temperament up...do you think i choose to have a cat that is so petrified after all that has happened to her in her younger days?
Do you think i enjoy the fact of barely getting a stroke of her?
Do you think i relish the fact of knowing that for the next 20 odd years possibly she may never change the way she is?
But does this mean i wont love her still?
No to all the above. And i would appreciate if my business, and my life and the life and temperaments of my animals were kept off this board unless i post in relation too it.
See catpages was such a friendly place, but now its just turning into nothing but backstabbing and one up manship!

borderdawn

13-05-2006, 10:28 AM

I dont think you wanted a frightened Cat Luke and as I said in my mail to you I was thinking about her whilst boarding the Russian blue with similar problems, which is why I mentioned it. I am pleased you are choosing to spay her and I really hope it helps her in the manner in which it helped this Cat, however Bobbies post did alarm me somewhat, which of course is why I responded. You could not ever hope to raise a litter of kittens with a Cat whom you could not handle freely, and to pass such a temperament on would be awful.

I also wished you luck with Elsa and I still do, you said you had the patience to help her and I believe you do, I think others will agree that you have already made massive improvements, I think so anyway.

So on that score Luke, I commend you for having the maturity beyond your years, and wellbeing of your pets at the front of your mind.
Dawn.

Kazz

13-05-2006, 12:48 PM

this coming from the young lad that is posting ads looking for a stud for his Cross breed cat?:roll: :shock: :roll:

It is unfair to throw these things back in people's faces. I thought more of you, especially when you obviously do not have all the facts.

Edited to say I would not intervene in this way with the majority of people here however.....
(And Yes Luke your age is going to be mentioned again this time by me). Please remember Luke is a youngster/teenager and as such is still making up his mind on certain issues and in doing so he may appear to be undecisive, so please bear this in mind remember when you were young?. I would post the same with regard to Tom, Luke or any youngster who posts here.

We are after all a community.

Donna

13-05-2006, 12:51 PM

I hate these threads. Can we have a ban on discussing the rights and wrongs of moggies having kittens?

candyshandy

13-05-2006, 01:13 PM

Certain issues are difficult to debate but that doesn't mean people should be 'gagged'. Debates bring new information forward about key issues and are important and educational.

Booktigger

13-05-2006, 01:17 PM

I agree with CS, people can learn lots of things from debates like this so as long as people dont get nasty, I don't see a prob with them.

Kazz

13-05-2006, 01:19 PM

Certain issues are difficult to debate but that doesn't mean people should be 'gagged'. Debates bring new information forward about key issues and are important and educational.

I agree however its when these issues start to be personal that the trouble starts. Debate is good; getting to personal is not good debating, but an argument.

I think everyone is entitled to hold and voice and opinion as long as it is not spoken/written in a way that causes other people discomfort, this is a community not a warzone.

Kim

13-05-2006, 01:39 PM

Certain issues are difficult to debate but that doesn't mean people should be 'gagged'. Debates bring new information forward about key issues and are important and educational.

I agree with you on this.

When I read everyone's responses on the photo thread about a purposeful litter of kitens, I admit I felt very despondent. :( I think my earlier post was rather hasty as I was so upset & frustrated by the responses that I just wanted to leave CP. :oops: For many years I have actively encouraged, as best I can, the value of neutering and helped 'pick up the pieces' of unwanted litters. I have come away from helping at the rescue centre in tears of sadness and frustration at some people's irresponsibility. This will always be a difficult issue and one that is very emotive. However, I have followed this thread through and on the whole I feel that yes, we are all agreeing that neutering is the responsible thing to do.

I would hate it if we were unable to get moggys as I love them. You all know Sidney, my disabled cat, possibly disabled because of interbreeding??? who knows, but I do know that my life is happier with him in it. However, I really do not think that we will ever run out of moggies! Like Kazz said, it would be great if we reached a stage when at least every cat had a good, loving home. Rescue centres are overun with cats & kittens and I would be happy if we could at least drastically reduce that number. Our rescue centre often has to say no when a phone call comes in asking if we can take on yet another cat. We have a cattery full of ferals, some of them I am convinced were once pets, but just left to their own devices. Most are not re-homeable and therefore means we have so say no to other needy cats. More than once we have had people bring in cats because they thought they were cute as kittens, but have lost their appeal. A really common excuse is that "we are having a baby and so can't keep the cat"!!!! :?

Luke, good luck with Elsa, sounds as if you have done wonders with her and I'm pleased to hear that you think neutering is the way forward for her. ;)

Emm

13-05-2006, 01:57 PM

I think we should really be discussing why are so many people so willing to get rid of animals.

We seem to live in such a throw away society with most people burying their heads in the sand regarding the consequences.

When I take on an animal I make a silent promise to myself that I will look after that animal for the rest of his/her life - even if that means that it disrupts my life.

Tippy Toes was incredibly difficult to look after she had a lot of pyschological problems - but we worked with her right to the end and she died with us knowing what love is.

Barney (dog) is incredibly difficult to look after he has really bad seperation anxiety and also has health problems - he might need to get a double hip replacement at some time.

But nothing in this world would make me give him up - or when Tippy Toes was alive nothing would have made me give her up.

Fran

13-05-2006, 02:13 PM

When I read everyone's responses on the photo thread about a purposeful litter of kitens, I admit I felt very despondent. :( I think my earlier post was rather hasty as I was so upset & frustrated by the responses that I just wanted to leave CP. :oops: For many years I have actively encouraged, as best I can, the value of neutering and helped 'pick up the pieces' of unwanted litters.

I wasn't going to reply on this thread as tbh I am sick and tired of hearing the same old stories and high and mighty opinions.

The litters you are reading about on CP are very much 'wanted' litters there will be no pieces to pick up for you to worry yourself about Kim.

My kittens are all very much wanted, the new mummies and daddies have wanted /waited months for a grey kitten, just like I have been waiting months for show quality Siamese! My kittens are loved, raised in my living room as you can see from my photos. They are all healthy, flead, wormed and are being vet checked next week.. The parents are innoculated, wormed and flead regularly and have fabulous temperaments. Mum was properly cared for during pregnancy and I helped her and was with her the whole time during delivery of the kittens. My kittens are well integrated and socialised and are now weaned and litter trained. They will all go with 6 weeks free insurance, I offer a lifetime back up for new owners just as I do for my puppies and I would always take one of my kittens back at whatever age just the same as I would my pedigree puppies. I am sick and tired of being 'attacked' It is my choice whether I neuter my pets or not, not yours or anyone else's on here. I do not actively promote the breeding of any animal as Luke will tell you when he asked my advice re Elsa. I take the breeding of my animals seriously whether it be Pedigree dogs or moggie cats. If you do not agree with what I do then you do not have to read my threads. As I said before in a previous thread..

'If you can't find something nice to say, then it is better to say nothing at all'

Donna

13-05-2006, 02:15 PM

When I take on an animal I make a silent promise to myself that I will look after that animal for the rest of his/her life - even if that means that it disrupts my life..

This is what everybody here on CP no doubt would agree with. I too would never in a million years "get rid" of my two cats and bunny just because I was bored with them, or they got in the way, or they didnt fit into my life anymore. :(

They are part of my life. Always will be.:)

Agree this is the way forward with animal ownership. But how can we make the rest of the country feel the same way :?

bobbie3917

13-05-2006, 02:34 PM

HOWEVER Elsa has chosen the life she is happy with and thats coming and going as she pleases..and in order for her to live this way she will be getting speyed ASAP for all of those out theres information:)

THANKS GREAT NEWS

Also, the adds were old,
and there not that old
Advertiser's status: trade . Ad type: wanted . Date: 07-03-2006

3 months is not that old Luke

Kim

13-05-2006, 02:38 PM

I wasn't going to reply on this thread as tbh I am sick and tired of hearing the same old stories and high and mighty opinions.

The litters you are reading about on CP are very much 'wanted' litters there will be no pieces to pick up for you to worry yourself about Kim.

My kittens are all very much wanted, the new mummies and daddies have wanted /waited months for a grey kitten, just like I have been waiting months for show quality Siamese! My kittens are loved, raised in my living room as you can see from my photos. They are all healthy, flead, wormed and are being vet checked next week.. The parents are innoculated, wormed and flead regularly and have fabulous temperaments. Mum was properly cared for during pregnancy and I helped her and was with her the whole time during delivery of the kittens. My kittens are well integrated and socialised and are now weaned and litter trained. They will all go with 6 weeks free insurance, I offer a lifetime back up for new owners just as I do for my puppies and I would always take one of my kittens back at whatever age just the same as I would my pedigree puppies. I am sick and tired of being 'attacked' It is my choice whether I neuter my pets or not, not yours or anyone else's on here. I do not actively promote the breeding of any animal as Luke will tell you when he asked my advice re Elsa. I take the breeding of my animals seriously whether it be Pedigree dogs or moggie cats. If you do not agree with what I do then you do not have to read my threads. As I said before in a previous thread..

'If you can't find something nice to say, then it is better to say nothing at all'

Ahemm, excuse me, but I really don't think that was necessary at all!!! Since when was I 'having a go' at you????? :? I can't remember ever disagreeing with you in one of your threads. You are taking this way to personally, I have no doubt that your kittens are wanted or indeed anybody's on here, after all we are supposed to love cats, right? I was speaking generally. I was frustrated simply because a poster had posted a picture of the result of her purposeful mating of her cat and I interpreted, rightly or wrongly, because of the responses that most people seemed to think this was okay. Since reading this thread I have realised that *most* of us actually agree that neutering is best. I am not being 'high & mighty' - it is just something I feel very strongly about, that's all and I have explained why. You make your own choices, but you can't expect everyone to agree with them, just as I don't expect everyone to agree with me! :? however, we are all entitled to our own opinions and as someone said debate is not a bad thing. Which is why there is a 'debates' section. I am sorry that you don't like what I have said, I was hasty and I have apologised for that. We're not all perfect. However, if I feel strongly about something I will say something, in certain situations your quote is quite right, but not in all, after all we do have freedom of speech. :-D

bobbie3917

13-05-2006, 02:42 PM

It is unfair to throw these things back in people's faces. I thought more of you, especially when you obviously do not have all the facts.

Edited to say I would not intervene in this way with the majority of people here however.....
(And Yes Luke your age is going to be mentioned again this time by me). Please remember Luke is a youngster/teenager and as such is still making up his mind on certain issues and in doing so he may appear to be undecisive, so please bear this in mind remember when you were young?. I would post the same with regard to Tom, Luke or any youngster who posts here.

We are after all a community.

but saying 1 thing on here and then going and doing another thing is also not called for (i have lots more facts in my pm box if you want to see, this has been going on with him for a every long time).
when i was his age i had no intrest in breeding cats or dogs or any other animal, its not some thing a child should be thinking about

Fran

13-05-2006, 02:46 PM

borderdawn

13-05-2006, 02:48 PM

I wasn't going to reply on this thread as tbh I am sick and tired of hearing the same old stories and high and mighty opinions.

The litters you are reading about on CP are very much 'wanted' litters there will be no pieces to pick up for you to worry yourself about Kim.

My kittens are all very much wanted, the new mummies and daddies have wanted /waited months for a grey kitten, just like I have been waiting months for show quality Siamese! My kittens are loved, raised in my living room as you can see from my photos. They are all healthy, flead, wormed and are being vet checked next week.. The parents are innoculated, wormed and flead regularly and have fabulous temperaments. Mum was properly cared for during pregnancy and I helped her and was with her the whole time during delivery of the kittens. My kittens are well integrated and socialised and are now weaned and litter trained. They will all go with 6 weeks free insurance, I offer a lifetime back up for new owners just as I do for my puppies and I would always take one of my kittens back at whatever age just the same as I would my pedigree puppies. I am sick and tired of being 'attacked' It is my choice whether I neuter my pets or not, not yours or anyone else's on here. I do not actively promote the breeding of any animal as Luke will tell you when he asked my advice re Elsa. I take the breeding of my animals seriously whether it be Pedigree dogs or moggie cats. If you do not agree with what I do then you do not have to read my threads. As I said before in a previous thread..

'If you can't find something nice to say, then it is better to say nothing at all'

I understand what you are saying Fran, but how could you possibly know that all your Cats and puppies will be returned to you? You dont. I think this is the 3rd litter you have bred from Maud isnt it? Nobody that breeds frequently (not saying you do) can possibly keep up with every animal they sell, its impossible, who would expect them to? How can you be sure that all your kittens are sold as pets and not allowed to roam, wander etc... become pregnant and produce more? It happens all the time, regardless of "contracts" etc..

I dont think anyone on here has said that ANY of the kittens bred will not be reared or cared for, just why on earth would they want to do it when they firstly have no intention of keeping any, and secondly why would anyone put THEIR Cat at risk from pregnancy, kittening, etc.. for the benefit of other people? It can only be profit? especially because there are so many needing homes already. I personally cannot see that, I cant see it with pedigree Cats, let alone moggies.

Care has never been an issue on here.

I would like to apologise if I have caused upset, dealing with Cats every day, has made me not shy to speak my mind, and never afraid to tell the truth, but if I have caused offence then I apologise.
Dawn.

borderdawn

13-05-2006, 02:53 PM

Fran

13-05-2006, 03:08 PM

I understand what you are saying Fran, but how could you possibly know that all your Cats and puppies will be returned to you? You dont. I think this is the 3rd litter you have bred from Maud isnt it? Nobody that breeds frequently (not saying you do) can possibly keep up with every animal they sell, its impossible, who would expect them to? How can you be sure that all your kittens are sold as pets and not allowed to roam, wander etc... become pregnant and produce more? It happens all the time, regardless of "contracts" etc..

I dont think anyone on here has said that ANY of the kittens bred will not be reared or cared for, just why on earth would they want to do it when they firstly have no intention of keeping any, and secondly why would anyone put THEIR Cat at risk from pregnancy, kittening, etc.. for the benefit of other people? It can only be profit? especially because there are so many needing homes already. I personally cannot see that, I cant see it with pedigree Cats, let alone moggies.

Care has never been an issue on here.

I would like to apologise if I have caused upset, dealing with Cats every day, has made me not shy to speak my mind, and never afraid to tell the truth, but if I have caused offence then I apologise.
Dawn.

This is Maud's third litter Dawn. 2 accidental litters and this one was 'planned' She had one live kitten from her first whom I kept. So as it stands presently she has three kittens in new homes so far. Two of those went together and I know exactly where they all are and receive regular updates as I will from these three I have now when they go to their new homes. I can't speak for others on here but from my own experience I am out of pocket rearing kittens rather than reverse. Maud had mastitis last litter, the vet bill alone was more than I received for the kittens putting aside what it cost me to feed them and mum. Maud has not been well also this litter and I already have a £75 vet bill for her, the kittens will be vet checked next week that will cost me. I have paid for wormer, frontline spray and lots and lots of kitten food for mum and now babies. The babies also have goats milk which doesn't come cheap. So how you could possibly think I will make any money out of the kittens is quite beyond me :?

You are quite right in that I cannot force people to return their kittens/cats/puppies back to me but I hope by keeping regular contact with new owners it will help as it did recently when I took back one of my puppies from my last litter. Neither can I force them to neuter their kittens or prevent them from roaming but then neither can a 'pedigree' breeder..All I can do is educate and offer a full back up service with support for the new owners and keep regular contact with them. I have to say that I have heard about / spoken to some pretty poor breeders of both pedigree dogs and cats but because they have the label 'pedigree' it's ok for them to breed. My kittens will be a lot better raised, be healthier and much more wanted than many pedigree cat breeders out there who do breed just to make money

Fran

13-05-2006, 03:13 PM

Would that then be seen as Catpages encourages the purposeful breeding of Moggies? Should that, in your opinion be encouraged?
Dawn.

All I was trying to say is there is a time and a place for points of view to be put forward and I personally don't feel that a pictures thread of kittens is the right place

Sue

13-05-2006, 03:13 PM

Maud had mastitis last litter, the vet bill alone was more than I received for the kittens putting aside what it cost me to feed them and mum. Maud has not been well also this litter and I already have a £75 vet bill for her,

Can i ask why you let her have kittens, when it makes her ill?? I couldn't put my Sophie through that.:(

Jeanette

13-05-2006, 03:15 PM

For the love of....

Sometimes I'm happy things are so different here in Denmark....

All my 4 cats have been moggies.. or as cats are known here in Denmark.. CATS!!!!!!!!!!

I for one would never ever be able to afford a pedigree cat, nor would I want one.

And for your always mentioning rescues... well I personally don't feel confident enough to bring an adult or youngish cat (or dog for that matter) into my home... I did that once and it was a disaster. I'm sure you all do a wonderful job and thank you for that..

If I'm to have another cat, it will be a kitten.. And not a pedigree, cos a "moggie" (which does sound horrid in my ears) can be just as beautiful

As to health.. well (sorry to bring this up in here, Jenny) a pedigree can have just as many health issues.. And its up to me, if I want to keep my (indoor) cat/s healthy...

Will this keep popping up everytime someone have kittens???

Fran

13-05-2006, 03:18 PM

Can i ask why you let her have kittens, when it makes her ill?? I couldn't put my Sophie through that.:(

She had one litter no problem Sue, the mastitis on the second litter the vet thought was a one off and the vet saw no reason why she couldn't go on to have the litter I had planned.

That's what makes us different Sue, I understand the risks involved with breeding and I am willing to take those risks..

Nicola

13-05-2006, 03:38 PM

I wouldn't do it if there was ANY risk involved but as you said, that's what makes you different.

Fran

13-05-2006, 03:43 PM

I wouldn't do it if there was ANY risk involved but as you said, that's what makes you different.

There are a whole host of risks involved with breeding. If you aren't prepared to take the risks then breeding is definitely not for you. If I wasn't prepared to take the risks then I wouldn't breed cats or dogs as there is no way you can breed without there being very real risks.

borderdawn

13-05-2006, 03:45 PM

This is Maud's third litter Dawn. 2 accidental litters and this one was 'planned' She had one live kitten from her first whom I kept. So as it stands presently she has three kittens in new homes so far. Two of those went together and I know exactly where they all are and receive regular updates as I will from these three I have now when they go to their new homes. I can't speak for others on here but from my own experience I am out of pocket rearing kittens rather than reverse. Maud had mastitis last litter, the vet bill alone was more than I received for the kittens putting aside what it cost me to feed them and mum. Maud has not been well also this litter and I already have a £75 vet bill for her, the kittens will be vet checked next week that will cost me. I have paid for wormer, frontline spray and lots and lots of kitten food for mum and now babies. The babies also have goats milk which doesn't come cheap. So how you could possibly think I will make any money out of the kittens is quite beyond me

I say again I KNOW care is NOT an issue. 2 accidental litters Fran IMO is 2 too many. Re the illness poor Maud has to suffer, that also is not acceptable IMO, mastitis is terribly painful, how could you do it to her again? I dont understand, if its not for the money what is it? Obviously you did not bank on her being ill for this "planned" litter so what was the inclination to do it, knowing she was ill last time? It sounds like I am having a go at you now, and I dont mean to, I am just interested in your reasons for doing it to a pet moggy.

Please forgive the questions Fran, I do value your opinion on anything, i think you are very experienced and knowledgable, but one other thing puzzles me, you said previously that you have people waiting for a grey kitten, you had no problem finding Clooney in a very short space of time, so there is obviously no shortage of grey moggies being produced by one means or another, why would you then state this as a reason for mating Maud yet again?
Dawn.

Fran

13-05-2006, 03:50 PM

I say again I KNOW care is NOT an issue. 2 accidental litters Fran IMO is 2 too many. Re the illness poor Maud has to suffer, that also is not acceptable IMO, mastitis is terribly painful, how could you do it to her again? I dont understand, if its not for the money what is it? Obviously you did not bank on her being ill for this "planned" litter so what was the inclination to do it, knowing she was ill last time? It sounds like I am having a go at you now, and I dont mean to, I am just interested in your reasons for doing it to a pet moggy.

Please forgive the questions Fran, I do value your opinion on anything, i think you are very experienced and knowledgable, but one other thing puzzles me, you said previously that you have people waiting for a grey kitten, you had no problem finding Clooney in a very short space of time, so there is obviously no shortage of grey moggies being produced by one means or another, why would you then state this as a reason for mating Maud yet again?
Dawn.

I have already explained about the illness issue in a previous post. Grey kittens are quite hard to find. We were lucky with Clooney but did have to travel a very long way to go and get him and there really aren't very many around. When we got Maud, I wanted a boy but she was the only grey kitten I found after looking for about 12 months

deester

13-05-2006, 04:02 PM

If it wasn't for someone crossing a snow bengal with a BSH silver tabby I wouldn't have two of my lovely cats, I personally love the look of my cats the striking colour of the snow bengal with the more rounded features of the BSH cat and the temperament is fantastic. Incidently I have read that some bengal breeders have tried to breed in a little BSH, though it is has been scorned by other bengal breeders.

We took as much time & care choosing our crosses as we did our pedigree cat and previously moggies bearing in mind how long they can live, how much they cost to keep, which as we all know here is a hell of a lot.

I don't see the problem lying so much with people who breed cats whether pedigree or pedigree crosses, a breeder of pedigree or cross pedigree cats will not let his cats roam and just mate with anything. The problem lies more with irresponsible owners who let there un-speyed or un-neutered cats out resulting in un-wanted litters and very often ferral litters.

Also not all pedigree breeders are good breeders and readily get rid of their cats when they're no more use for breeding, or before when they realise the work involved in breeding.

And I am not one to think that you can make a profit at breeding either the costs are enormous - cat litter, making kittening pens, cat food, cat litter, litter boxs, kitten packs, worming tablets, flea treatment, vet fees, advertising and probably a new sofa lol.

13-05-2006, 05:21 PM

Can we keep this discussion non-personal please.

Also, when someone says they are not reffering to anyone in particular they may be being polite knowing that a certain situation/circumstance may be similar to someone's on the board. You may of course answer such posts, but don't assume you were being reffered to, as of course, that may not nesc be the case.

Kim

13-05-2006, 05:41 PM

I wasn't insinuating that you were having a go at me in particular Kim but I obviously fall under the bracket of 'purposefully bred moggies' so I am included in anything you have to say on the subject.

With regard to my quote, it was more to illustrate that it isn't fair to disrupt member's threads. If you don't agree with pictures of their kittens then just ignore the post rather than spoiling the thread and upsetting the op. Discussions of this type should be in threads like this not someone's personal kitten thread

I wasn't even aware Fran that you purposefully breed moggies. No I don't agree then, but that's my opinion and not an attack on you personally. :) I am sure you are very responsible, I have never suggested that anyone here isn't responsible. ;)

Az has already made it clear (his job, not yours) that it wasn't appropriate for my comments to be on that pictures thread, and my post was deleted as a result. I accept that. Hence why my comments are now in this thread. I love kittens and love looking at photos of them, but that's not the issue as I'm sure I have made clear. Like Dawn, having worked in rescue and seen it from that perspective I do now have strong feelings about it and will speak my mind for which I don't apologise for, but that doesn't make me 'high & mighty'. However, if any of my comments have upset anyone I apologise, that is definitely not my intention. :-D

CJK

13-05-2006, 05:52 PM

persoanlly i dont give a rats butt if a cat is pedigree, moggie, half pedigree or wahtever, as long as it has been bred responsibly, with love and careand NOT jsut for financial gain.

As said many times over there are awfull moggie breeders, but also terrible pedigree breeders.

I dont agree with purpsefully letting your cat out to get pregnant when in call.

but I love moggies as much as any other cats.

candyshandy

13-05-2006, 06:06 PM

I have to say that I am against breeding any cat except responsible pedigree breeders. I also feel that all breeders should be licensed and all owners should pay a license fee. All monies from the fee scheme should go towards policing the breeders.

Foofoo obviously came from a backstreet breeder - she was dumped in a field near a busy A road, intact nearing 8 years of age. When my vet spayed her she said her uterus was extremely enlarged more than likely as a result of being in season too many times.

You only have to look at freeads to see how many people are in it for the money especially the age they allow kittens to leave mum. This resulting in behaviourial problems which remain with the cat for life.

There is no way nonbreeds will 'die out' due to the feral colonies and why can't the dsh prefix be classified as a breed anyway?

I believe the new laws coming in require licensing so we will see how it all works.........

I absolutely adore all cats whatever the breed, I obviously have a fave and would have loved to have a persian kitten. But, there are way too many older cats in rescue desperate for a 2nd chance. My three babes were all 2nd chancers and I can honestly say you would never know I hadn't had them from kittens. I know all adopters would share that experience.

Edited to add: Just reread that and realised it sounds as if I am anti pedigree kitten buying - that isn't the case just my personal choice.

Sue

13-05-2006, 06:14 PM

Oh poor Foofoo...what an awful thing to happen to her.:( How is she now???

Kim

13-05-2006, 06:15 PM

She had one litter no problem Sue, the mastitis on the second litter the vet thought was a one off and the vet saw no reason why she couldn't go on to have the litter I had planned.

That's what makes us different Sue, I understand the risks involved with breeding and I am willing to take those risks..

Sadly though Fran, the risks involved are to Maud and not you. You said she had mastitis last litter and poorly again this litter. Just wondering why you think it is all worthwhile given her suffering and the costs involved to you? (again not having a go, just asking ;) )

candyshandy

13-05-2006, 06:17 PM

Oh poor Foofoo...what an awful thing to happen to her.:( How is she now???

She is fantastic - all memories of her past life well and truly erased:)

I'll put a recent piccie of her on the piccies thread :D

borderdawn

13-05-2006, 07:56 PM

Sadly though Fran, the risks involved are to Maud and not you. You said she had mastitis last litter and poorly again this litter. Just wondering why you think it is all worthwhile given her suffering and the costs involved to you? (again not having a go, just asking ;) )

I think this is what I want to ask to Kim.

1. If you dont breed for profit
2. Are prepared to put your Cat at huge risk, knowing she has suffered in the past
3. Say that you are out of pocket
4. Are not keeping any for yourself

Why do it?
Dawn.

EmmaG

13-05-2006, 08:26 PM

I think this is what I want to ask to Kim.

1. If you dont breed for profit
2. Are prepared to put your Cat at huge risk, knowing she has suffered in the past
3. Say that you are out of pocket
4. Are not keeping any for yourself

Why do it?
Dawn.

I don't see why anybody should justify themselves to you Dawn or anybody else on this forum, apologies if this is not how your post was intended to come across.

Hreow

13-05-2006, 08:34 PM

I think we should really be discussing why are so many people so willing to get rid of animals.

I think that requires at least one person who ditches cats to be involved. Think CP is probably the wrong place to find one. :-) Absolutely agree that that is a huge problem. People who don't have cats because they're genuinely interested and fond of cats. (Genuinely as in interested in finding out what makes their cat tick and in letting it be a happy cat.) More shoes I would not choose to walk an inch in, let alone a mile.

borderdawn

13-05-2006, 08:39 PM

I don't see why anybody should justify themselves to you Dawn or anybody else on this forum, apologies if this is not how your post was intended to come across.

Its a genuine question Emma, Fran has stated she makes no money from breeding moggy Cats, and that her Cat has had 2 accidental litters, one of which she was ill during, then mated her again and she has been ill again, I was just wondering why anyone would do that to a pet if its not intended as financial gain. Nobody "assumes" Vet bills for ill Cats, so what was the reason for her putting her Cat through it again as she also stated she had no intention of keeping any. The debate is whether or not its right to breed them, I was asking Frans reasons (as she does it) for doing it, what is wrong with that? No malice intended at all.
Dawn.

bobbie3917

13-05-2006, 08:49 PM

And I am not one to think that you can make a profit at breeding either the costs are enormous - cat litter, making kittening pens, cat food, cat litter, litter boxs, kitten packs, worming tablets, flea treatment, vet fees, advertising and probably a new sofa lol.

so why have you done it?
again not to keep a kitten was it?

Hreow

13-05-2006, 09:00 PM

I'd imagine that any breeder with feeling would breed kittens for the joy they give to the breeder and the future owners. Just a guess here. No use making the perfect cat, if no-one else can enjoy it. No better way of letting your own perfect moggies live on than letting them continue in their kittens.
Ok, not debate, just emotion and speculation. Going to bed now. Too tired... : /

Fran

13-05-2006, 09:06 PM

I think this is what I want to ask to Kim.

1. If you dont breed for profit
2. Are prepared to put your Cat at huge risk, knowing she has suffered in the past
3. Say that you are out of pocket
4. Are not keeping any for yourself

Why do it?
Dawn.

Not that I am answerable to anyone on here...I bred this litter because I had some lovely homes lined up, there is a shortage of blue moggies, I had my vet's ok that it would be fine to do so and I have the time and the money to be able to raise happy, healthy babies whilst ensuring that Maud wants for nothing..

I get the distinct impression that no matter what I say, it will spark yet another load of questions and put me 'under the lamp' so as far as I am concerned, I have answered all your questions honestly and I have nothing further to add on this subject..

Het

13-05-2006, 09:10 PM

so why have you done it?
again not to keep a kitten was it?

why do you do it?
Isn't it continuation of the species???
and why is it that caring loving cat owners are tarred with the same brush as inconsiderate unscrupulous breeders...moggie or pedigree????
We are all here on Catpages because we love our Cats, why should anyone be condemned for it, and if that includes having a litter of kittens for the sheer joy and pleasure then so what, as long as its done responsibly. Why should certain people be allowed to breed from ther cats and not others, that seems extremely arrogant to me. We shouldn't be attacking each other..we should be congratulating and encouraging those who are conscientious about the welfare of their cats and kittens!!!!!!!

borderdawn

13-05-2006, 09:10 PM

Thank you for those answers.:D
Dawn.

Kazz

13-05-2006, 09:13 PM

so why have you done it?
again not to keep a kitten was it?

Would keeping a kitten have made it "okay" ?

bobbie3917

13-05-2006, 09:26 PM

why do you do it?

i done it to keep a kitten for my self. i didnt cos she had only boys and i wanted a girl see a reason to have a litter, yes i had homes lined up for all the kittend but i was let down by a few as they wanted girls and different colours. if i didnt want to keep a kitten i would not of had the litter both fran and deestar both said they have done it for others

borderdawn

13-05-2006, 09:30 PM

why do you do it?
Isn't it continuation of the species???
and why is it that caring loving cat owners are tarred with the same brush as inconsiderate unscrupulous breeders...moggie or pedigree????
We are all here on Catpages because we love our Cats, why should anyone be condemned for it, and if that includes having a litter of kittens for the sheer joy and pleasure then so what, as long as its done responsibly. Why should certain people be allowed to breed from ther cats and not others, that seems extremely arrogant to me. We shouldn't be attacking each other..we should be congratulating and encouraging those who are conscientious about the welfare of their cats and kittens!!!!!!!

The main problem I have with breeding moggies is that there are far too many as it is, why breed more? At least with responsibly bred pedigree Cats there are health checks on parents, inoculations etc not the case with moggies.

Good and bad with everything, I feel exactly the same about people that breed dogs for financial gain, and TOP breeders/exhibitors are as much to blame there let me tell you, regardless of health testing!

If I am honest, nobody has given me any reason to think that the moggy Cats on here were bred for anything other than profit, none have been kept in the litters that are on here, there are certainly no health benefits for Cats having kittens and the fact that it is done repeatedly leaves me in little doubt. Those are my personal feelings and mine alone, I apologise for any offence caused, but with the reasons given for breeding I just cant get my head around it. Yes I sound like a Cow, but as I said, I was taught to tell the truth, a bit of honesty never goes amiss.

Should people choose to do this to their Cats then obviously its their choice, just not for me.
Dawn.

bobbie3917

13-05-2006, 09:31 PM

Would keeping a kitten have made it "okay" ?

it makes it OK to me, i done it to try to better what i had and keep a kitten to maybe show, i had homes lined up for 5 kittens they had a good start in life, after paying for mums care, kitten vac's food and litter i made about £100. if i had kept a kitten (if there was a girl) i would of been out of pocket and that was fine with me. unless you are planning to keep a kitten i cant see the point in breeding

Canis-Equus

13-05-2006, 10:57 PM

No one 'has' to answer any questions..... but i would suggest that if being asked certain questions makes someone feel uncomfortable they need to look to themselves and perhaps question their judgement.

I am not getting at 'anyone' because bar the two people i know on here personally, IRL, i dont know ANYONE, yer all the same to me, you could all be top class pedigree breeders with multiple show winning cats, or back street moggy peddlars, i wouldnt know.

And that is a valid point. Some people seem to assume that because someone posts on a forum, a forum specific to the care and welfare of cats (or dogs or horses or motorbikes or whatever) they are above reproach, they can do no wrong.

This simply ISNT the case - with the exception of Snoof and Borderdawn and possibly one or two other familiar names, no one here knows me, How DO you knwo i dont breed hundreds of unhealthy moggies with horrible hereditary conditions and sell them to pet shops.... you DONT.

If we can NEVER question what we think may be morally (or in any other way) wrong, what do we do, sit by and let it go unchallenged?? Wossat quote abotu that?

'For evil to prevail, it takes one good man to do nothing'...

Sadly, newcomers to websites like these DO assume that whatever goes on on there is the norm, is perfectly acceptable, and then they go away and carry that misinformation on.

Breeding to improve a breed, breeding to carry on a line, ok its still because WE want to breed.... but breeding because your friend wants a kitten? Sorry, why is it YOUR cats problem that your friend needs a kitten?? Why is it right that a cat risks her health because someone would like to give or sell their friend a kitten?

Its not - as far as i am concerned if you want a specific moggy, you look and you wait and you travel for the one you want.

Em