Genetics and Colours - as promised

[Kay]

Finally I have managed to get down to writing this thread on genetics and colours as promised in a previous thread.

I can only tell you what I have learn't through my breeding of colourpoints and colourpoint carriers but the basis is the same for any cat. I have no dealings with White, Bi-colour or silvers as I am not allowed to use them in colourpoint breeding.

Firstly the male kittens get their colour from their mother and the girls get theirs from a mix of both parents. The dominant colours are Black (Seal in colourpoints or Brown in Tabbies ), Red and Chocolate with the dilutes being Blue, Cream and Lilac. Dominant Tortie is the usual Black/Red tortie or Chocolate Tortie with the dilutes being Blue-Cream or Lilac-Cream. So basically you can not get a dilute from two dominants unless they both carry the dilute gene, i.e. one of their parents was a visual dilute, which we will go into later.

Therefore if you have a Seal point dad and a Red point mum it would potentially produce Red point males (from their mum) and Sealtortie point females (a mix of the seal and the red ).

Let me know if you get the hang of this so far and I will carry on. It took me a while but now I think it is great.

[Fran]

I love colour genetics. Have to say that it is much easier in dogs than it is in cats :roll: I just about get it so far Kay - I think :?

Question!...two dilutes? can only produce dilute, yes?

[Hreow]

"Firstly the male kittens get their colour from their mother and the girls get theirs from a mix of both parents.". This contradicts what I have learned, but I've just perused books and haven't looked at colourpoints. If two Aa mate, one kitten will be aa (theorhetically speaking here) and that would not be sex-related. Red/Tortoiseshell is sex-related. There is an article here:
http://messybeast.com/tricolours.htm
Feel free to tell me I'm ignorant. :-)

Dilutes will only give dilutes, in my basic knowledge. Dilute is recessive.

Added later: Rereading this it sounds "catty" in the wrong way. What I mean to say is, thanks for writing this, hope you don't mind it if I spout the odd comment to better understand. That's all it is, honest, I just get the phrasing wrong at times.

[Booktigger]

Do you know which is recessive and which is dominant in the hair genes?

[Hreow]

Robinson's "Genetics for Cat Breeders and Veterinarians" says the longhair gene is recessive. Is that what you meant?
Rex (except for the Selkirk) is recessive as well. Wirehair is dominant, with incomplete penetrance. Same source. The "Incomplete" bit is that although it is dominant, not all cats show it, as far as I can tell (it's one of the bits I don't quite get at the moment) maybe means it is easily "disguised" by another factor?

[Snoof]

Gotcha Kay :-D Thanks for doing this!

[Kay]

Fran:- Yes two dilutes will only have dilute kittens.

Hreow - This article goes against everything I have ever learn't in colourpoint and colourpoint carries (that is self colours carrying the colourpoint gene). I also found that article to be misleading on another occasion about all reds being tabbies. If this is the case then why does every cat registering body register both red selfs and red tabbies under totally different breed numbers. I have always worked out my colours this way and so have all my breeding friends and it has never ever failed in 6 years of breeding. But I am not a genetic expert just a breeder. You are quite right about the hair genes.

Snoof - Glad you like it so far it was done specially for you.

Next step:- If we take the same colour parents as before, Seal point dad and red point mum, but add the fact that they both carry the dilute gene ( i.e. both sets of their parents had a dilute ) the colours possible go up to Red point and Cream point males (from mum) and Sealtortie point and blue-cream point females (from both). The best possible mating colour wise is a dominant male carrying dilute to either a dominant tortie carrying dilute or a dilute tortie or a dilute male to a dominant tortie carrying dilute. These matings will give you Seal, Red, Cream and Blue point males (the Seal is not coming from the dad but from the tortie of the mum) and in females you could get Seal, Blue, Sealtortie and Blue-cream tortie points.

This is without introducing the chocolate gene, of course.

[Hreow]

:-) Note to self - works completely different in colourpoints. :-) Thanks for explaining.
Faint but persuing. :-) {gets fresh cuppa and settles to find out more}

[Fran]

Hmmm it's getting complicated now Kay :?

[candyshandy]

I'm trying to work out Foofoo's genetics (lilacpoint) - will carry on reading...............:shock:

[Mags]

It is too much for me to take in Kay but I'm more than happy to look at all your beautiful cats!!:lol:

[logoes]

Goodness me, I,d never even thought about colour breeding in cats, our moggies just arrived in various colours, but I can tell you about colour breeding in Dobermanns and although basically the same its a lot less complicated than cats. I will be following this with interest - Logoes.

[Snoof]

It is very much appreciated, Kay :-D

[dandysmom]

You've put a lot of work in on this, Kay, & it's appreciated, even if a little difficult to grasp some of it...breeders really have to do their homework before they plan a mating...WOW:-D

[Julie84]

You lost me at the beginning, unfortunately, but I'm very grateful for your posting. I would dearly love to know more and find it very interesting - even if I don't understand much! :oops: I never realised genetics would be so different between species of animals (have some knowledge of rat genetics).

Will watch avidly for future installments. :)

[dinahsmum]

Head wrapped in damp towel but still finding this heavy going :roll:
Thank goodness I'm not a breeder.
Interesting to get an inkling of what goes on though.
Thanks for posting and being patient with people's 'Whaaaaaa :smt102 ?' responses!

[CJK]

ok, you lsot me on the second bit there.

But i'll keep re-reading it and doing some research online until i "get it" especially as I wanna go into coulourpoint breeding!!! (If i can't fathom this think i'll just rescue a few lol)

[CJK]

am i right in thinking that as pf is a blue-cream then her parents were torties?or were they torties carrying dulite?
Either black/red or chocolate?

and do you mind me asking what's a tortie? ( i know that sounds dumb)

edited to add: is a tortie a tabby version of a persian cat? Can't get across what i mean here, i goolged piccies of tortie persians, and they all are cats with various diff colours in thier coats. Or am i totally off track here? lol


Think Kay has her work cut out trying to get me to understand this

[Hreow]

From what I understand (now) about colourpoint, one parent could also have been red-point carrying dilute (or a cream-point) and the other seal-point carrying dilute (or a blue-point). (Am I right Kay?)
pf would have inherrited a mix of both colours, being a girl, and dilute from both parents (or she wouldn't have been blue-cream, but seal/red).
Or the parents could have been torties carrying dilute, which is definitively Kay's domain as I *know* I'm fuzzy on tortie genetics. : /

[CJK]

ok now i AM totally lost!

[Hreow]

I'm sorry - this seems to be my thread for putting my foot in it. : /

[CJK]

not at all, i'm just having trouble getting to grips with it.

Is there a cat genetics for dumies class? lol

[CJK]

ok, i get the second part of that now Kay, but for somer eason am still struggling with the first part, unless I'm trying to make it more difficult than it really is f course.
Found the colour chart on the cat club page usefull, but confusing (to me) lol


EDITED:

right, i think i am getting there.

If i had a seal point mum and a choc point dad would i therefore get seal point males and choc seal point females?

( am so sorry to keep asking so many questions)

[Hreow]

If there is, sign me up for it! :-) Mind, I'd be booted after five minutes for keeping up a constant stream of "But *why*..." (In the colour-chart example "How can two cream parents have red male kittens??? Two blue can't have a seal...surely the same thing???" )
Maybe best I stick to books. And non-colourpoint.

[CJK]

If there is, sign me up for it! :-) Mind, I'd be booted after five minutes for keeping up a constant stream of "But *why*..."
Maybe best I stick to books.


lol, I Wouldnt worry about it, it really does take me ages to get to grips with these things, and i ask about a zillion questions too

[Snoof]

CJ, here's Wikipedia's take on what a tortie is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortoiseshell_cat). Hope that helps :) Lots of people have torties here - the picture of Jaffa in the pictures forum shows a beautiful one, Smudge is one, and I can't remember the name of Mags' but I think she has one too (in her avatar!).

[CJK]

aaahh yes that did indeed help!!!
although i would never have guessed that blue cat was a blue tortie. But now i get that bit of it.

so, another annoying question, is a tortie and a tabby the same???

[Hreow]

They're not but I haven't a clue what the difference is. I base this on the fact that you can have tabby-patterned torties (called torbies in the US). Think tabbies have the 'M' on their forehead and a solid-coloured tail-tip as well. Also not much help.

[deester]

Kay if a female cat has blue eyes and a male has green would the boy kittens have blue eyes and the girl kittens be either blue or green?

[Snoof]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabby_cat

[Hreow]

The eye-colour is apparently not a single-gene thing, so you could have a wide range of colours. Blue in white cats has something to do with the whiteness, but (as far as my books tell me) that's about all the certainty you get. :-) I imagine the pedigrees would have been bred from breed-standard eye-colours - thus making sure that that complex of eye-colour related genes is more present in the stock? I.e. Abys are most likely to have yellow/amber eyes, with an occasional green, because anything else wasn't given a chance to breed.

[Snoof]

White cats with blue eyes are also frequently deaf, if I recall correctly.

[CJK]

aaaah ok, so tortie is more patches, tabby more stripey.

Getting there, albeit rather slowly!


what on earth has poor kay let herself in for?

[Hreow]

But there is a stripey tortie-type as well.... Argh!

Snoof: Cats with different coloured eyes and white are apparently even supposed to be predominantly deaf on the blue-eyed side.

[Julie84]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabby_cat

That article was great thanks, Snoof - it help me understand more about my tabby boys. :)

However, on a different thread (the red tabby thread I believe) I'm sure someone said there is no such thing as a black tabby? In that article it says the black and agouti tabby is called brown in the US and black in the UK - and now I'm confused again! :lol: :oops:

[Julie84]

Ooh, from your link, Snoof, I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_coat_genetics

:mrgreen:

[bobbie3917]

Kay if a female cat has blue eyes and a male has green would the boy kittens have blue eyes and the girl kittens be either blue or green?

i think blue eyes have to be carried by both sire and dam so if you breed a blue eyed ragdoll (all ragdolls have blue eyes) to a moggie then the kittens would not have blue eyes
do all colour pointed cats have blue eyes?

[bobbie3917]

aaaah ok, so tortie is more patches, tabby more stripey.

Getting there, albeit rather slowly!


what on earth has poor kay let herself in for?

there is also a torbie which is a tortie that have tabby markings

[CJK]

Ooh, from your link, Snoof, I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_coat_genetics

:mrgreen:

now some of that just confused me even more lol

[Julie84]

Oops sorry CJ! :oops:

[Julie84]

So, is tabby a colour or a marking?

Is tortoiseshell a colour or a marking?

If you can have colourpoint tabbies/torties then surely it would be a colour rather than a marking?

Would a torbie be a bi-colour (if they are each colours that is!)?

These may be very silly questions but we have to start somewhere (and I know nothing!) :oops: :lol:

[Snoof]

If I recall correctly (and please someone correct me if I'm wrong) markings and colour are two separate genes. So the colour gene may decide the main colour and the point colour, but another gene determines how they're distributed (i.e. in points).

[CJK]

ok, now i going to sound REALLY dumb here.
markings- are like stripes, spots etc ?
and the colours are diff genes? right.
I am very very slowly getting to grips with this, i think!

[Sweet]

I am soooo lost here in this thread, think id better re read it during tomorrow x

[Julie84]

If I recall correctly (and please someone correct me if I'm wrong) markings and colour are two separate genes. So the colour gene may decide the main colour and the point colour, but another gene determines how they're distributed (i.e. in points).

Now that seems to make sense in my head. I'm getting confused though, I think I keep mixing rats in there somehow! :oops: :lol: It think it's the breeds that confuse me - how does the breed fit into everything?

[bobbie3917]

tabby is a patten like brindle is in dog
tabby can come in strips, spots and patches and comes in all colours

[CJK]

i'm confused too Julie lol.

[Hreow]

Rover is also a tabby. An agouti, or ticked tabby. He carries dilute, and possibly sorrel. Not that he'll ever get a chance to prove it.

tabby is a patten like brindle is in dog
tabby can come in strips, spots and patches and comes in all colours

[Kay]

Sorry I seem to have deserted this thread but my pc has been playing up when I come on CP.

Hopefully this answers all the questions asked so far.

CJK Firstly the question of the colours of PF's parents. Unfortunately I can't tell you what they were just what the possibilities could have been to produce a blue-cream girl. Both parents could not have been torties as the tortie gene is sex linked and is almost always female, occasionally a male is born but he will be infertile. The chart below could all produce blue-cream girls:-

SIRE. DAM.

Black carrying dilute x Red carrying dilute
Black carrying dilute x Tortie carrying dilute
Black carrying dilute x Cream
Black carrying dilute x Bluecream
Red carrying dilute x Black carrying dilute
Red carrying dilute x Tortie carrying dilute
Red carrying dilute x Blue
Red carrying dilute x Bluecream
Red carrying dilute x Chocolate carrying dilute
Red carrying dilute x Choc-tortie carrying dilute
Red carrying dilute x Lilac
Red carrying dilute x Lilac-cream
Red carrying dilute & chocolate x Chocolate carrying dilute
Red carrying dilute & chocolate x Choc-tortie carrying dilute
Red carrying dilute & chocolate x Lilac
Red carrying dilute & chocolate x Lilac-cream
Blue x Red carrying dilute
Blue x Tortie carrying dilute
Blue x Cream
Blue x Bluecream
Cream x Black carrying dilute
Cream x Blue
Cream x Tortie carrying dilute
Cream x Bluecream
Cream x Lilac
Cream x Lilac-cream
Cream x Chocolate carrying dilute
Cream x Choc-tortie carrying dilute
Cream carrying chocolate x Lilac
Cream carryiing chocolate x Lilac-cream
Cream carrying chocolate x Chocolate carrying dilute
Cream carrying chocolate x Choc-tortie carrying dilute
Lilac x Bluecream carrying chocolate
Lilac x Tortie carrying dilute & choc.
Lilac x Cream
Lilac x Red carrying dilute
Chocolate carrying dilute x Red carrying dilute
Chocolate carrying dilute x Bluecream carrying chocolate
Chocolate carrying dilute x Tortie carrying dilute & choc.

This may not be the full list but my eyes are going now :roll: :roll: :roll: .

A Tortie or Tortoiseshell is a patched cat, for a show cat it must be evenly patched and all 4 legs, tail and face must also be well marked. The dominant colours are the Black/Red Tortie which is the main one and the Chocolate Tortie which is Chocolate and Red. The dilutes are Blue-cream (a mix of Blue & Cream) and Lilac-cream (a mix of lilac & cream). A Tortie is totally different to a Tabby in all breeds and non-peds. A Tabby is essentially a striped cat although there is a spotted version along with the classic pattern and the mackeral pattern. It can be difficult sometimes to see the pattern in a Persians coat and thats probably what threw you CJ.
If you had a seal-point dad and a choc-point mum you would get all seal kittens. This is because the chocolate gene works differently. I will go into that later.

Hope this answers your queries CJ.

As this reply is so long I will answer everybody elses questions on the next thread.

Blame CJ for this.:lol: :lol: :lol:

[CJK]

woops, sorry everyone!!!!!

ok, soo confused now lmao. I got it all wrong. have to go abck and starta gain!

[Kay]

Now to reply to everyone else's questions as long as my PC will let me. I had all the answers typed out last night, clicked the submit reply and the damn PC decide that the server couldn't be found :roll: :roll: . My language was not very clever :oops: :oops: . So here goes.

Hreow.

Only one of PF's parents could have been a Colourpoint as 2 x Colourpoints only produce Colourpoints and PF is a self. You could have had a Colourpoint and a self that either carried or didn't carry the Colourpoint gene. Apparent from that you seem to be on the right track :lol: :lol: . Both parents would not have been Torties as this is a sex-linked gene to the female. Occassionally a male Tortie is born but they are infertile. As for the colour-chart on the website it is wrong you can only get Cream from 2 x Cream parents. I have told the lady who does the website and she will correct it. Well spotted :lol: :lol: . Torbies, as they are kown in the US, are called Tortie-tabbies over here and they are basically a mix of the Tortie and Tabby markings. Tabbies do have a M on the forehead they should also have thumbprint on the back of the ears, lines coming away from the outside corner of the eyes, necklaces round the neck, bracelets round all 4 legs, oysters on their haunches and a ringed tail with a dark tip. This is the classic pattern there is also a spotted Tabby and a mackeral tabby.

Deester.

The eye colour does not carry as the coat colour does but is linked to a particular pattern, colour or breed. Blue-eyed cats tend to be White or Colourpointed but are also present in certain breeds eg. Turkish Van and Norweigan Forest Cat. In Persians all the other colours, except Chinchilla/ silvers which have green eyes, have orange/copper eyes. To throw a spanner in the works though :? :? Whites can also have orange or indeed odd-eyes, one of each colour, and are registered as three different breeds.

Julie84.

In the UK Tabbies are registered as Brown Tabbies not Black or in the case of colourpointed cats Seal-Tabby. Although the Persian registered colour is Brown Tabby but with Black in brackets. Tabby and Tortoiseshell are both markings but have colour variations. The same applies to the colourpointed cats the onlt difference being is that the both the colour and the markings are restricted to the points, ears, face, legs and tail. A torbie, known as a Tortie-tabby in the UK, is not a bi-colour. A bi-colour is a colour and white eg Red & White, Black & White etc. You can however have Tortie and White, Tabby and White and Tortie-tabby and White in bi-colours.

Bobbie3917.

It is highly unlikely that the kittens out of a Ragdoll x moggie mating would have blue eyes but if the moggie carried the colourpoint gene then the kittens born with colourpoint markings would have blue eyes but the others wouldn't. All colourpointed cats have blue eyes as it is linked to the colourpoint gene.

Hope this helps everyone. Fingers crossed my PC will now submit it. ;) ;)

[Julie84]

Thanks Kay, that is brilliant and has helped me understand it all a lot better! :)

[Kay]

Thanks Kay, that is brilliant and has helped me understand it all a lot better! :)

Glad it's helped. I think I am getting a bit muddled now :shock: :shock:

[CJK]

i THINK i am starting to understand this a bit better now, thanks kay

seems i forgotten about the cat genes coming from mother etc....and thats why i thought pf parents would both be torties.

See where i went wrong now

[Fran]

Kay a question :-D

How would you describe the Mackeral coat pattern? I thought Claude was a Mackeral tabby but from your description I think he may be Classic?

[Kay]

Kay a question :-D

How would you describe the Mackeral coat pattern? I thought Claude was a Mackeral tabby but from your description I think he may be Classic?

The face , tail and legs are the same but they have a dark line going down the back with stripes coming down from that, on either side, all the way along the body instead of having oysters on their haunches ( an oyster is just a large dark shape ). I will look one of Claude's pics and see if I can tell.

[Kay]

Fran have had a look at Claude's pics and he is definitely a Mackeral pattern Brown Tabby. ;) ;)

[Snoof]

Kay, this is wonderful :-)

Only one thing confuses me - you say a tabby has to have all of these:
Tabbies do have a M on the forehead they should also have thumbprint on the back of the ears, lines coming away from the outside corner of the eyes, necklaces round the neck, bracelets round all 4 legs, oysters on their haunches and a ringed tail with a dark tip.

My friends' cat Rufus is a ginger stripy cat (with a white bib and some white socks though) and the tip of his tail is light. He does have the other characteristics described as far as I can remember. Does that make him not a tabby, or does it change because he also has white?

My other friend back in Scotland has two ginger fluffballs, and the only way to differentiate between the two is that one has a dark tip to his tail and the other has a small light tip (basically, the last ring of dark starts where his brother's dark tip starts, but has a light blob at the very end). Of course they decided to give them two differently coloured collars while they learned to recognise them by other features :lol:

But does that make the one with the light tip not a tabby, or is it like in rats where that's simply considered a mismark, makes him a tabby for all intents and purposes, but counts in, say, show standards?

(Also, last time I saw my friend's two cats they were about 15 weeks old, so they may have changed since).

[Kay]

Hi Snoof

Glad you are enjoying the thread.

Your friends cats are still Tabbies like you say I am going of show standard. The one with white would be classed as a Red Tabby and White. Hope this clarifies things for you.

I am trying to think what I should cover next in this thread.

[Fran]

Fran have had a look at Claude's pics and he is definitely a Mackeral pattern Brown Tabby. ;) ;)

Thank you Kay. I thought he was Mackeral but got a bit confused :roll: That's really clarified it for me :D

He is classed as brown tabby because there are no such things as black tabbies?

[Kay]

Thank you Kay. I thought he was Mackeral but got a bit confused :roll: That's really clarified it for me :D

He is classed as brown tabby because there are no such things as black tabbies?

Yes they are classed as Brown Tabbies the Black being the markings with the base colour being Brown.

[Fran]

He is more grey than brown. His under fur is browny/fawny but the tips of his fur are grey?

[Julie84]

The face , tail and legs are the same but they have a dark line going down the back with stripes coming down from that, on either side, all the way along the body instead of having oysters on their haunches ( an oyster is just a large dark shape ). I will look one of Claude's pics and see if I can tell.

Could a litter contain classic tabbies as well as mackeral tabbies? :?

I think, from your description, Thomas is a mackeral and Murphy is a classic (which would make sense now as I was also confused as to why Thomas had a thick black line down his back and Murphy had blotches! :oops: :lol: )

Also, Thomas and Murphy are different brown colours, with Murphy being lighter (their markings are both black though). Is this because Thomas has more black markings, making him an overall darker colour, or could they be two different colours? Or are they different tones of the same colour and still both brown tabbies?

[Kay]

Julie

Yes a litter can contain both Classic and Mackeral pattern Tabbies and as with any colour there are varying shades of brown so it is probable that they are both brown tabbies. Have you posted any pics of them cause I could have a look for you?

[Kay]

He is more grey than brown. His under fur is browny/fawny but the tips of his fur are grey?

Fran, I have checked his pics again he is definitely a Brown Tabby but he will carry dilute as Maude is a Blue (grey). They have varying colours/shades of brown in their coats.

[Fran]

Thanks Kay ;)

[Snoof]

Thanks Kay. And thanks again so much for putting the time and effort into this thread. I'm riveted :-)

[bobbie3917]

i think i have got it now about the all reds being tabbies,
its not just reds its all cats. tabbies are either TT or Tt, solids are always tt. the T or t stands for tabby. for either of the tabby markings (Mackerel or blotched) so the cat has to be either TT or Tt to be tabby (T) is dominant then it only needs 1 T to show and the t will be hidden. a solid or self will be tt there for tabby but not showing the patten and there far can not pass T on as it does not have 1 so if breed to another tt they will only have solid/self kittens but if put to a TT all kittens will be tabby or put to a Tt you will get half and half.


to put it easy Frans kittens can not be tabbys as both mum and dad only carry t but if dad was put to my minx she is a Tt (her mum was a solid) then half the litter would be blue tabby and the other half blue solid

hope this helps

[bobbie3917]

ps a tt (self/solid) is say a red cat with red tabby markings or a black cat with black tabby markings and so on and so on...... so the tabby is there you just cant see it

[Fran]

Thanks for that Nat...that really explains things well. But how do the 'ghost' markings work then. Both Maud and Clooney are solids but both of them had tabby ghost markings which have now disappeared. All the kitts do too and I am assuming theirs will disappear also. Are all solids born with ghost markings?

[bobbie3917]

i dont know lol maybe it takes a while for the back colour and the tabby colour to match lol i dont know, and i do think all solids have ghost markings at first well maybe not blacks

[Fran]

It's so complicated isn't Nat? Dog colour genetics is so much easier :-D

[Snoof]

I have never known a short-haired black cat (self-coloured) who did not have ghost markings. Sometimes they're very difficult to see, I always found it easiest on the forehead, and in Ninja I've only spotten them maybe twice so far, but they are there. Finally makes sense now :roll: If you look hard at Maude and Clooney you can still see them particularly on the tail in the picture with them having a cuddle while the kittens played, I think.

Edit: posted in the Clooney-clones thread to show the picture I meant.

[Booktigger]

I couldn't see any in Casey, yet I have in Molly, and also in Pebbles who is black and white - both on the head, and in fact it is the only place I have seen ghost tabby markings. My neighbour has a grey and white, and he has ghost tabby stripes on his tail (well, rings I suppose)

[bobbie3917]

i have had a few black cats and they have had no ghost markings at all even as every young kittens

[dandysmom]

Hreow, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that Abys have faint ghost stripes when they're young...I think I read this when I had Sultan....??

[Hreow]

Hmmm... I think Abys used to have more stripey-tabby markings in the past, but that it has been (mostly) bred out of them now. As in, if they do have bracelets, or other stripey bits (bar the 'M' on the forehead, that is), it's considered a fault. So they can obviously have unmasked mackrel in their genotype. I've also read that they can have fading ghost-markings, but none of the kittens I have seen have had any. You wouldn't be fishing for a picture of Rover when he was a wee bairn, would you now? :-)

[dandysmom]

Hmmm... I think Abys used to have more stripey-tabby markings in the past, but that it has been (mostly) bred out of them now. As in, if they do have bracelets, or other stripey bits (bar the 'M' on the forehead, that is), it's considered a fault. So they can obviously have unmasked mackrel in their genotype. I've also read that they can have fading ghost-markings, but none of the kittens I have seen have had any. You wouldn't be fishing for a picture of Rover when he was a wee bairn, would you now? :-)
I wasn't. but now that you mention it....! Sultan was a ruddy Aby of the 70's; had no tabby markings at all except his M. I'm going to have to dig out my old books & see if I can find that about ghostmarkings in kittens.. SURE I read it somewhere.

[Hreow]

Perfect colour for a cat. I can call him the ruddy cat without being told off for more than Americanisms. :-)
I'll post his baby-picture in a new thread. Hijacked this one enough for now. :-)