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View Full Version : Repercussions for animal cruelty - what should they be?


Snoof
09-03-2006, 04:16 PM
I hope this is ok, it shouldn't contain any graphic details and certainly no pictures.

What do you think the punishment should be for animal cruelty? Does it make a difference if the animal lives on or not? Is there such a thing as "emotional" cruelty towards animals? Should that carry the same consequences as physical cruelty?

What would you like to see done to enhance the CP's ability to detect and act on animal cruelty?

I figured this might make people feel less powerless as they can offer input rather than reading about animals who had the misfortune of falling foul of rotten, morally decrepit people and having no way to offer truly useful input? Just tell me to sod off if I'm wrong!

yola
09-03-2006, 05:05 PM
There is an animal cruelty law going through parliament at the moment; there was a petition I signed (and also wrote to my MP asking him to support the bill), which gave additional powers of prosecution to the RSPCA and the police, and stricter penalties for animal abuse.

I'm not sure if it differentiated between physical and mental cruelty - I'd have to look back through at it. However it is a difficult and subjective thing to police - how would mental cruelty to an animal be defined? And would be be judging it by human or animal standards?

Donna
09-03-2006, 05:09 PM
What sort of punishments are dished out to scum that do things like this? I have no idea. Probably nothing knowing this country. But this is what I wanted to do, by posting this link, talk about it, and find out things that I dont already know, see if there are laws etc etc.

JemBob
09-03-2006, 05:41 PM
think if you MURDER an animal you should get a year in jail and banned from owning pets for life simple as that. But there is something the rspca want like pet police where it also gives permisson for your council to come into your house and remove your pets away from you if they are not kept in good living coundtions and if they dont have all the things that a pet needs :? which is a bit freaky, but anyways just have to wait and see

JemBob
09-03-2006, 05:45 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2015978,00.html

dont know if this has already been posted but here you go

Snoof
09-03-2006, 05:49 PM
Yes, KO, I'm a bit worried that law might swing the pendulum too far at first.

By the way, not to be pedantic, but linguistically, "murder" applies only to killing within a species - so a cat can murder another cat and a human can murder another human, but a human can't murder a cat. Which, I believe, is why the punishments for killing another species are more ambiguous.

That very distinction allows us to put suffering animals to sleep (and, sadly, to do so with animals who don't need it), to kill certain animals for food, and to kill wild animals who present a danger to humans, cattle or pets.

Mixed bag, really. But the distinction is there linguistically and legally.

I do very much agree with your proposed sentence, however.

JemBob
09-03-2006, 05:58 PM
wow bit blown away with that lol

good point tho :lol:

Snoof
09-03-2006, 06:04 PM
:lol: Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come off snarky - but whenever someone says killing a pet is like murder I think "but if it were legally so we'd not be able to have them put to sleep when it's necessary and would be kinder to do so" - and that is a right I personally find very important.

JemBob
09-03-2006, 06:10 PM
i didnt think that :lol: its true what you said tho:lol:

Donna
09-03-2006, 06:24 PM
This is where it all gets a bit complicated, as you say we put our pets to sleep if we feel it is necessary but that is not murder but we are ending their life

Maybe we can have the law changed where if it is done to someone elses pet without their permission it could count as murder. But then if we accidently run a cat over and it dies, where do we stand legally there? Is that manslaughter (or catslaughter).

I dont think we can have out and out murder laws for animals but there has to be stronger punishments dependant on the type of cruelty and the way the animal died etc.

Snoof
09-03-2006, 06:34 PM
I agree Donna - and just because it's not murder doesn't mean it shouldn't be severely punished. Doesn't make it any better than it is - "murder" is a word, and doesn't make things moral or immoral. The action makes itself.

If that makes sense - I really need a nap but when I tried to take one my 3-year-old was sick on me, so it's not looking likely atm :lol:

LMC
09-03-2006, 06:43 PM
Maybe we can have the law changed where if it is done to someone elses pet without their permission it could count as murder. But then if we accidently run a cat over and it dies, where do we stand legally there? Is that manslaughter (or catslaughter).
It would be an accident - a tragic one, but an accident nonetheless. Cats can "appear" out of nowhere and dash across the road. However angry and upset you are at the loss of your much loved pet, you can't blame the driver for that and there shouldn't be any legal repercussions.

When dogs or farm animals are hit, you legally have to report it to the police - you don't for cats. Unfortunately, they sometimes do run away after an accident and hide to die. In my last house I had a knock on the door from a very distressed poor lady who had just run over a cat, which had run out of my garden straight in front of her car - he lived two doors down from me. As the cat had run away, she couldn't do anything except try to let someone know - which she did. But what if you can't get an answer from any local houses - highly likely during a workday - you can't be blamed for that.

I think the law as it stands when it comes to road accidents is right, and shouldn't be changed.

(Just to finish the story - my neighbours were out, so I went searching for poor puss - he was *well* hidden and I would never have found him if he hadn't mewed in response to my "puss puss" calling and kissy noises. Sadly, he had to be PTS the next day, his injuries were just too severe.)

Snoof
09-03-2006, 06:58 PM
But what if you can't get an answer from any local houses - highly likely during a workday - you can't be blamed for that.
You could always leave a note describing the cat to the best of your ability? Even so, though, which house would you leave it at? I suspect I'd try that if I truly couldn't get hold of anyone... But I don't think my chances of getting the correct house are that brilliant.

Donna
09-03-2006, 07:01 PM
I would want to leave a note somewhere nearby and state what vet I had taken it to or my phone number. Hopefully if you get the wrong house they might know of who the cat belonged to

Snoof
09-03-2006, 07:26 PM
Aye. Although hitting a cat with your vehicle, unless it's on purpose, is not animal cruelty...

Booktigger
11-03-2006, 11:45 PM
Certainly an interesting question - hadn't realised that a change in the law might affect euthanasia, it is something I strongly agree with (and just wish it were legal for humans), so wouldn't want to lose that (although it isn't always used correctly). I think that you shoudl have to report hitting a cat though, I don't see why there should be any difference, you might still have a distraught owner looking. I am a bit wary of the new animal bill, I haven't fully read it, but it is cos the RSPCA are policing it - a volunteer posted on another forum that some branches will refuse to take pure blacks cos they are hard to rehome, adn we all know what they can do just cos a cat is FIV+, so I am not sure they are the best people really.

PaulaB
12-03-2006, 11:40 AM
Certainly an interesting question - hadn't realised that a change in the law might affect euthanasia, it is something I strongly agree with (and just wish it were legal for humans), so wouldn't want to lose that (although it isn't always used correctly). I think that you shoudl have to report hitting a cat though, I don't see why there should be any difference, you might still have a distraught owner looking. I am a bit wary of the new animal bill, I haven't fully read it, but it is cos the RSPCA are policing it - a volunteer posted on another forum that some branches will refuse to take pure blacks cos they are hard to rehome, adn we all know what they can do just cos a cat is FIV+, so I am not sure they are the best people really.

Having seen the last few horrific cases of animal cruelty, the only fitting punishment is at least 50 lashes as the Singapore government does. I am fed up of excuses for this behavier and the softly softly way is treated with contempt by this sort of vermin. As for human euthanasia please no. It has been made legal in Holland and its been admitted that patients are
a being forced to agree by relatives, in one case an elderly man who changed his mind was told that his relatives had spent a lot of money coming from Canada and he shouldn't be so selfish.
b being put down against their wishes even if the doctor KNOWS there is a better way
c elderly people are carrying living wills to state they don't want to be killed because they are so scared of being taken to hospital and killed!!!!!!!!! Are we wanting our grandparents and parents to be too scared to get medical help because they don't want to die?

It hasn't worked in Holland and it will not work in this country because basically doctors are arragont gits who (while smoking drinking and by the look of them being overweight) think they and only they know whats good for you. As an example I can't remember how many times I have been asked by a doctor have I given up smoking yet? and do I know how unhealthy it is? The one question I have NEVER been asked? Do you Smoke? How does a non smoker give up smoking? I did ask why didn't they ask if I smoked and was told that she assumed as a factory worker I would naturally be a smoker!!!!!!

Booktigger
12-03-2006, 12:33 PM
That is interesting - was talking to the receptionist at the vets when I helped home a cat that had been taken to pts, and she said it was things like that that made her glad that euthanasia wasn't legal in humans - I didn't think it would be that much of an issue, I didn't realise relatives would have a say. So I will have to have a think about that.

Donna
12-03-2006, 12:35 PM
It does make you think more - I have only ever seen it as a good thing for us humans that are very ill and in pain and never getting better, but forgot about all the money grabbing relatives that might see a way to getting their money quicker.


Interesting...........

Booktigger
12-03-2006, 12:46 PM
I thought of it that way too Donna.

Snoof
12-03-2006, 12:54 PM
Well, the relatives wouldn't have a say. I think Paula's saying they're guilt tripping people. I do want euthanasia for people, but then I also expect adults to be capable of telling people to sod off when they're being pushed around. The relatives in the Netherlands don't have a legal say as long as the person dying is capable of making their own decisions (i.o.w. not a vegetable - when my brother was brain-dead as a result of a car accident, we did get to make the decision to have his organs harvested for transplantation and have the machines switched off).

BT, the thing about pure blacks makes me sad. Ninja is pure black and a rescue cat, and I didn't know how hard they are to rehome until I got to this forum. It made me even happier Matt got him, because between his behavioural issues and his colour he really didn't stand much of a chance, and he was only about a year old :( It would've been awful if he'd ended up spending the rest of his life at the rescue just because he's black and scared.

Kay
14-03-2006, 11:18 AM
I have a real issue with the RSPCA doing anything about cruelty to animals. I have contacted them on two occassions about different cruelty cases, as I saw. The first was a breeder of Persians. She had sold a stud cat to a friend of mine and he was in an terrible state. He had cuts on him where she had caught him with clippers and the cuts had gone bad needing antibiotics, you could see all his ribs and backbone he was so underweight, he was absolutely terrified he just hid in the corner of the cat run and my friend could not handle him for weeks and he has never worked again beacause of all this. It was also known that she had sold underweight kittens saying they were younger than they actually were to try and get round this. I reported all this to the Rspca only to be told that as she had hand the cat on to someone else there was nothing they could do. I asked what about the remaining cats and kittens that she was still breeding. They asked me if I had seen them on her premises when I told them I lived 150 miles away and she wouldn't let me in anyway they said " well if she won't let you in then she won't let us in either" and that was that.
The second issue I find more disturbing. I bought a Jack Russell pup for Kyle. He looked well, nice coat, shiny eyes etc. When I got him home I bathed him because he smelt of the farm. He had a docked tail and all this straw came off the end of his tail and you could see raw flesh and the bone. I rushed him to the vets and was told that we would have to wait and see if it healed with antibiotics and if not Pepsi would have to have an op to remove somemore bone and stitch the spare skin over it. When I asked when and how this had been done, as I knew it wasn't normal after having had a docked Rotti in the past, she said it had been done within the past fortnight, making him 6 weeks old when it was done, and it had been cut with a pair of scissors. I immediately went home and called the RSPCA and told them only to be told there was nothing they could do and then they put the phone down. I no longer have anything to do with the RSPCA.

By the way Pepsi is fine now.

Snoof
14-03-2006, 09:50 PM
Kay :o

That's awful.

Kay
15-03-2006, 12:35 PM
Kay :o

That's awful.

I know and yet Pepsi is so trusting of people and so loyal. It is unbelievable. There were 3 other pups in the litter as well. It doesn't bear thinking about. I felt like cutting something of his off with a pair of scissors.:mad: :mad: :mad:

Snoof
15-03-2006, 12:55 PM
Too right. I know it's a good thing we have the judicial system we do - theoretically speaking - but for some things a public stoning still wouldn't be enough :mad:

DiddyDawn
17-03-2006, 02:59 AM
I have a real issue with the RSPCA doing anything about cruelty to animals. I have contacted them on two occassions about different cruelty cases, as I saw. The first was a breeder of Persians. She had sold a stud cat to a friend of mine and he was in an terrible state. He had cuts on him where she had caught him with clippers and the cuts had gone bad needing antibiotics, you could see all his ribs and backbone he was so underweight, he was absolutely terrified he just hid in the corner of the cat run and my friend could not handle him for weeks and he has never worked again beacause of all this. It was also known that she had sold underweight kittens saying they were younger than they actually were to try and get round this. I reported all this to the Rspca only to be told that as she had hand the cat on to someone else there was nothing they could do. I asked what about the remaining cats and kittens that she was still breeding. They asked me if I had seen them on her premises when I told them I lived 150 miles away and she wouldn't let me in anyway they said " well if she won't let you in then she won't let us in either" and that was that.
The second issue I find more disturbing. I bought a Jack Russell pup for Kyle. He looked well, nice coat, shiny eyes etc. When I got him home I bathed him because he smelt of the farm. He had a docked tail and all this straw came off the end of his tail and you could see raw flesh and the bone. I rushed him to the vets and was told that we would have to wait and see if it healed with antibiotics and if not Pepsi would have to have an op to remove somemore bone and stitch the spare skin over it. When I asked when and how this had been done, as I knew it wasn't normal after having had a docked Rotti in the past, she said it had been done within the past fortnight, making him 6 weeks old when it was done, and it had been cut with a pair of scissors. I immediately went home and called the RSPCA and told them only to be told there was nothing they could do and then they put the phone down. I no longer have anything to do with the RSPCA.

By the way Pepsi is fine now.


Kay, the problem is when you phone the RSPCA you are not actually speaking to them but dealing with a firm that they hire to answer the calls. When I've reported things in the past and I've not been happy with the response, I've phoned again in the hope that I get someone a bit more "human" on the end of the phone. How long ago did you get Pepsi and is there still signs of him being cut or has the tail fully healed now?

Rosie
17-03-2006, 04:16 PM
"I no longer have anything to do with the RSPCA."

You and many many other people. I think they should have done something about that fat dog on the telly the other night because in my mind this amounts to cruelty. I have know so many people try and get help from them without any success. A friend of mine phoned in a desperate state when a litter of kittens was deserted by their mother. She wanted help about what to do how to feed them etc. They didn't want to know.

Julie84
17-03-2006, 05:35 PM
Oh Kay, that is awful. :( Glad Pepsi is okay now.

Kim
17-03-2006, 06:36 PM
I always believed in euthanasia for humans until my wonderful mum was so very ill. She tragically fell down the stairs onto ceramic tiles below and suffered horrific brain damage. She never walked again and couldn't talk properly and she had brain damage. To cut a long story short we watched her deteriorate for 18 months. She developed pneumonia and we were advised to consent to drugs being withdrawn. At first we agreed, but looking into her eyes, knowing we were not allowing vital drugs to be given made us feel we were playing God with her life. We just couldn't bear to do this so we asked doctors to give her antibiotics. Sadly, she did die but at least we didn't feel responsible. Euthanasia is different if the person can agree to these decisions themselves. It is strange that I have always held strong beleifs on this, yet whern we we placed in this situation my heart ruled.

Kay
20-03-2006, 12:39 AM
Kay, the problem is when you phone the RSPCA you are not actually speaking to them but dealing with a firm that they hire to answer the calls. When I've reported things in the past and I've not been happy with the response, I've phoned again in the hope that I get someone a bit more "human" on the end of the phone. How long ago did you get Pepsi and is there still signs of him being cut or has the tail fully healed now?

Pepsi is now 3 years old and is completely healed. It wasn't the help line I rang but Colwyn Bay centre. Our vet gave us the direct number.