View Full Version : Breeding
We have these sorta discussions on DW all the time, although they usually end up in warefare over there!!!:lol: :lol:
Just thought it would be intersting to hear your views on breeding cats, whether they be pedigree, crosses, or moggy?
IMO i think if the kittens have homes set up for them prior to the 'mating' and the homes are lifelong good homes, and maybe the person letting their cat have kittens will keep a kitten or two then i think its ok regardless of breeds and pedigree.
Of course it is allways thought of as ethical for pedigree cats to be bred, but if one would go on the principle of cats in rescue centres then one surely coudlnt agree with the breeding of any cat, not just moggys and such, surely?
I also think there is sometimes an exception if it is for the queens mental well being, or otherwise vet advised. Which it can often be, i know of a few people who have been advised to let their queen have a litter of kittens either by a vet or experienced breeder, infact one of those people is on this very board!!!
So lets hear your views, and lets try and keep to CP fashion and keep it friendly;)
Elfin
06-01-2006, 09:23 PM
I don't think I could give any kittens away, I'd end up like a mad cat lady :)
In Edinburgh there is such a shortage of kittens against demand so I think it depends on the area.
Naomi
06-01-2006, 09:40 PM
As with all breedings, whether pure bred cat or not, no matter how many people say 'Yes we'll have a kitten' it can end in tears. Circumstances change and that kitten no longer has a home to go to or cannot be kept by the owner.
I do not and have no intention of breeding cats but I don't understand how letting a queen have a litter be advised for 'her mental well being' :? Also why on earth would a vet, of all people advise anyone to breed from their cat when they are forever encouraging owners to get their pet's neutered/spayed? My vet's walls are plastered in posters with regard to statistics about how many kittens a cat can produce in a single year and the majority of them would probably end up in rescue centres :(
IMO anyone who considers breeding from their cross bred cat should be encouraged otherwise.
Snoof
06-01-2006, 09:41 PM
I think the main problem is that people get a female cat, don't spay her, let her run loose outside, and then get rid of the kittens as soon as the novelty wears off of them.
I don't mind moggies being bred, as long as the kittens will definitely have homes and as long as the health and temperament of the bloodlines is being kept in mind. Breeding any animal without being able to guarantee (to the extent possible) a long and happy life for them, is irresponsible.
That said, I always say I want a Maine Coon or a Somali, but I can't ever bring myself to buy a kitten I know will have an easier time finding a home when I could go to the rescue and find a cat who's got lower chances of finding a forever home.
Call me spineless :lol:
Snoof
06-01-2006, 09:43 PM
Naomi, while I see your point, many purebred races have congenital disorders or are at high risk of having them, whereas moggies (because of the much lower risk of inbreeding having occurred at any point in the past) tend to have much lower risks of such.
I can see both ways, on this issue, which is why my issue is with people who're badly prepared for a litter and who don't do everything they can to ensure the kittens will have loving, happy forever homes, rather than taking issue with purebreds vs mogs.
Snoof, I don't think I'll ever have a pedigree either, 'cos I'd feel too bad about all the moggies in rescue centres.
And as I've just caused WW3 on another forum I belong to, I don't think I'm spineless :oops: :lol:
People value what they have to pay for - of course, some pedigree cats do end up in rescue - but far fewer than moggies. So in some ways, the more restriction on breeding moggies the better. Then if demand for pedigrees or first generation crosses goes up, the rules might be relaxed and prices might come down. I dunno.
hi luke
when I brought Jazz as a full grown adult female into the house I had real problems with her and my other Siamese girl.... a hierarchy problem. I was advised by a very knowledgeable and reputable breeder that Jazz having a litter of kittens would go a long way to solving the problem. i was a bit dubious as I was worried that it would actually excacerbate the problem...but no, it worked, within two weeks of returning from the Tom the difference was amazing, she was a lot calmer and had a focus, and although there is still the odd 'argument' things still are ok. I honestly think if she hadn't of had the kittens I would have had to seriously think about rehoming her.
I am sure this solution would not have worked for everyone, and in this case there was a waiting list of good homes for the kittens, because I kept two there were people I had to disappoint.
I know the rescues are full of cats and I suppose I only see things from my side of the fence although I do have rescue cats as well, i think if you plan to breed and have homes confirmed for your kittens then fair enough.
Funnily enough when I went to the local RSPCA place for a kitten they refused because I worked full time, I ended up getting Tom from Cats Lifeline...he will be 16 this year.
Anyway I was very happy to have the kittens and I would do it again in the future...pedigree or not...I would try my best to find a good home for all the kittens, and I would always have a contract specifying that if the kitten (at whatever age) was not wanted it would be returned to me.
ooh did I ramble...?
borderdawn
06-01-2006, 09:48 PM
I do not and have no intention of breeding cats but I don't understand how letting a queen have a litter be advised for 'her mental well being' :???: Also why on earth would a vet, of all people advise anyone to breed from their cat when they are forever encouraging owners to get their pet's neutered/spayed? My vet's walls are plastered in posters with regard to statistics about how many kittens a cat can produce in a single year and the majority of them would probably end up in rescue centres
Spot on! Luke knows I feel this way too, there is no excuse for breeidng Cats to supply a pet market, just as there is no reason to produce more puppies to supply a pet market there. If any Vet is competant enough to recognise an animal has "behaviour problems" it is in my opinion highly unethical and downright irresonsible to even consider putting the poor animal through it, cannot understand anyone that would. What would happen if these problems were passed on? poor kittens, would they all end up in rescue?
Kittens bought as pets from responsible pedigree breeders usually have restriction put on them, a good idea in my opinion, e.g the non active register, kittens thought to be of showing or breeding quality, will be on the active register and are usually closely monitored by the breeders who care about their kittens.
Dawn.
I never ever considered Cassie having a litter of kittens.....as far as I was concerned I just wanted her for a pet. I am also totally against allowing your pet to have kittens just to make money:?
Luke you know my feelings on this as I told you them when you asked me in a pm just recently. There is no medical or psychological reason why any cat be it pedigree or moggie should have kittens.
I pointed out to you many of the risks involved in letting a queen have kittens and I also said to you that the benefits do not very often outweigh the risks. Any person who breeds cats dogs or whatever has to understand and accept the risk that they could very realistically lose their pet and / or the offspring. Do you know how very difficult to deal with that is? The other side of the coin is...any kitten / puppy what ever you breed you and only you are responsible for for the rest of it's life. That means that you have to have the facility and capability of taking every kitten you have bred back if circumstances so dictate that the new owners no longer want the kitten and bear in mind this applies for the whole of that kittens life so if Elsa has six kittens at some point in the future you could end up with all six back as elderly cats that you will then find it difficult for you to rehome..
food for thought.....
I have to say that in my experience no responsible vet or experienced breeder would encourage or recommend a moggie queen has kittens :?
I have heard it said for years that a queen should be allowed to have one litter of kittens.....but on who's say so? It is just a 'saying' that has spread and should not be used for gain....
borderdawn
06-01-2006, 11:11 PM
Its an old wives tales, same as for dogs. My neices Cat had "one litter" on her friends say so, she died and so did 4 of the 5 kittens! where was the friend when the £800 Vet bill came and the trauma of losing those babies?
Dawn.
samwise
06-01-2006, 11:11 PM
I agree with Luke, you should not breed (pedigree or moggy) unless you have good homes pre planned.
There are enough unwanted cats out there in rescues. That would be my first port of call every time!
Having said all that, I know a fair amout about the dog show circuit, and know that they are bred for standard etc. I know nothing about the cat show circuit! Most (I will not say all) dogs go to good homes for showing, I presume it would be the same for cats. I do hope I am assuming right!
smudgley
06-01-2006, 11:31 PM
When I first started reading this thread, I thought I would sit back & read it, but not post, however I have decided I should say my bit.
Look at the bigger picture
QUOTE From CP website "Formed in 1927, Cats Protection (CP) has grown to become the UK's leading feline welfare charity. We now rescue and find new homes for around 60,000 cats and kittens every year, through our network of 29 Adoption Centres and 260 voluntary-run Branches"
If there are 60,000 cats rehomed EVERY YEAR just by one charity, I think there are surely enough cats and kittens to go around without adding to it. If EVERYONE had there non-pedigree cat spayed, then this number would be greatly reduced. For every person that lets their cat have one litter, she could produce 10 kittens - those 10 could then produce hundreds between them & the cycle goes on.
As for letting any animal breed for her wellbeing or mantal state - well that is just absolute nonsense. NEVER should any animal be bred from without good reason & the welfare of the animal is by no means a reason at all.
smudgley
06-01-2006, 11:38 PM
Also until I got involved with cat rescue I had no idea of the extent of the problem. I knew there were unwanted cats in the world, but had no idea just how many. Every week we get calls from people about a cat that has appeared in their garden & had kittens. We can only do our best & we have to prioritise, but we can't take in every cat that we get asked to - there's just not enough spaces for them, we do our best & we prioritise pregnant mothers and moms with kittens, young kittens & then elderly cats. We have a huge list of people who need to rehome their cat/s but will keep them until we can put them in touch with someone & the cycle goes on. We rehome a litter, it's a good feeling, but you barely have time to clean the pen & the next arrivals are waiting.
Very good reply Smudgley....you have summed it up exactly!
Brilliant reply Smudgley!!!!
smudgley
06-01-2006, 11:57 PM
Thankyou Mags & Moli.
smudgley
07-01-2006, 12:09 AM
Another point - (I'm not talking about pedigrees)
I don't think it's a justified reason to breed just because you have homes lined up for the kittens.
If you know of 8 people willing to take a kitten from you, then you may think that is very responsible. But that means there are 8 potential homes there for kittens, so if your cat didn't have a litter -those 8 people could get a kitten elsewhere.
Which would take care of 8 cats from the 60,000 every year that need a home. Leaving only another 59,992 to find homes for.:roll:
Very good posts Smudgley:)
Directed at knowone in particular, but this thread is not about anyone intending to breed a litter of kittens etc it is simply our opinions on the matter, just too point out:)
smudgley
07-01-2006, 12:16 AM
My posts were not directed at anyone Luke - Just simply making an example.:)
Very good posts Smudgley:)
Directed at knowone in particular, but this thread is not about anyone intending to breed a litter of kittens etc it is simply our opinions on the matter, just too point out:)
I think that is what everyone has done Luke, given their opinions on breeding in general:?
I know that Smudgley, i was just making a general point to just say lets not get personal, it wasnt directed at anyone as i said in my post:)
smudgley
07-01-2006, 01:29 AM
Another point ~
FIV (feline immunodeficiency virus) is a condition which is more common in entire male cats. Mainly because it's primary way of being transmitted is via blood through biting & scratching usually passed on when males fight. It can also be transmitted through sexual contact, if your healthy FIV negative cat went out & was mated to the local tom, he could then infect her with FIV, which can sometimes be passed through the umbilical cords to the placentas of the developing kittens. Hence leaving not only your cat but also possibly some or all of the kittens with an unpleasant condition affecting their immune system.
Another point ~
Quote from Luke ""Of course it is allways thought of as ethical for pedigree cats to be bred, but if one would go on the principle of cats in rescue centres then one surely coudlnt agree with the breeding of any cat, not just moggys and such, surely?""
Any responsible breeder would have their breeding stock checked for FIV / checked for PKD / wormed / vaccinated and any other relevant health testing / screening carried out, also would ensure that kittens would be reared in a way that they are well socialised / vaccinated / wormed / treated for fleas before leaving for their new homes, I don't think that many people letting their moggy get mated with the local tom cat would be so responsible. This obviously is reflected in the price of the kittens - but if people are spending £300, £400, £800 or whatever on a cat, I'm sure they would have thought long & hard about the cat prior to getting it & would be less likely to put the cat up for rehoming at some point. I know some pedigrees cats have to be rehomed, but I've not met one personally yet!
borderdawn
07-01-2006, 07:52 AM
How can anyone possibly say they have homes for all the kittens? What divine intervention makes anyone know exactly how many a Cat will have? how many will survive? How many will develop health problems before leaving? Its utter rubbish to suggest someone can have homes for animals that dont exist! My friend had 5 homes for her Dobe bitches litter, plus they wanted to keep at least 1, she had 14!
Breeding pet Cats in my opinion is a terrible thing and no person who states a genuine interest in the welfare of their pet would consider it, let alone increase the numbers still further.
I still keep thinking about the "good for the Cat thing" I will put that to my Vet, he brings his pets in for boarding today.
Greed on whatever level is sickening when there are animals in mind, especially when potentially destroying their wellbeing for our gain. I turned down a 5 figure sum from the States for my bitch, at least 2 times a week and including 3 seperate occasions at the hunt the other week, I turn down stud requests for my dogs, why? because they are more to me than that, I could not be responsible for puppies they produced, I am not in a position to take puppies in should there be a problem, any self respecting, responsible breeder would.
When you speak of puppies or kittens that have come from dubious backgrounds, for example kittens that display, health or behaviour problems, what gives us the right to subject them to possibly more trauma for our own greed?
Dawn.
From reading the posts it is obvious that some of you find it hard to believe that it would be reccommended a cat have kittens for 'the sake of her wellbeing or mental health'
As previously posted, this was a reccomendation made to me and my cat and I am very happy that I followed it. jazz was two years old when I got her, her previous owner felt unable to give her the correct commitment. I struggled with her for about ten months, she was highly strung, nervous and fairly aggressive with the other cats. I consulted a specialist Siamese breeder who knows the breed inside out and she spent time with jazz and was confident that a litter would be the way to go. I certainly didn't do it for the money, I wouldn't have kept two if that was the case.
All I can say is that it worked! Within the space of a couple of weeks she became a contented happy cat, all the neurotic behaviour vanished and to this day she is an affectionate and happy cat. So you can say all you like about it being wrong to breed for these reasons and that it can't possibly improve a cats mental wellbeing....but in this case it did. Oh I am sure it wouldn't work for all cats and I agree that breeding shouldn't be carried out as a matter of course, but as with most things it is not a 'black and white' issue. I personally got a great deal of pleasure from the experience, and in time I would more than likely let another cat have a litter of kittens, pedigree or not. Just because there are people in the world who don't go about this in a responsible manner doesn't mean that I should not be able to have the pleasure of kittens...or puppies, selfish as it may seem to some of you.
borderdawn
07-01-2006, 07:43 PM
So the Cat was aggressive, highly strung and nervous, How can you feel right about breeding from a Cat with such a temperament? Would you have done the same with a dog that displayed similar characteristics? How would you of felt if kittens you sold developed similar behavour problems? I just find it really strange Het thats all, that anyone can see such incorrect behaviour then breed from that animal! Isnt breeding supposed to be for the good of the breed?
Dawn.
So the Cat was aggressive, highly strung and nervous, How can you feel right about breeding from a Cat with such a temperament? Would you have done the same with a dog that displayed similar characteristics? How would you of felt if kittens you sold developed similar behavour problems? I just find it really strange Het thats all, that anyone can see such incorrect behaviour then breed from that animal! Isnt breeding supposed to be for the good of the breed?
Dawn.
I suppose because in this case the problems were a result of her earlier life and the experiences she had...experiences which I was fully aware of and which made me persevere so long with Jazz. They were not problems bred into her which I though I had made obvious.I see your point Dawn and I agree with the value of it...but as I said this is not a black and white issue and breeding from an animal with any behavioral problem should not be frowned on as a matter of course. I kept two of the kits and am very closely involved with the lives of the other four...they show no signs of any of the behavior that jazz displayed before pregnancy. I put my trust in someone who was well experienced in the breed and as far as I am concerned the advice I received was correct. The alternative of rehoming jazz yet again was one I did not want at all.....who knows where she could have ended up
borderdawn
07-01-2006, 08:08 PM
I see what you are saying Het, but what if it didnt work? What would of happened to Jazz then? Have you bred from her since, and the question about if it were a dog, would you do the same? I realise I am being a nosey cow :-D cant help it, comes from a family of lawyers :-D I am not judging you by any means, i am just trying to understand.
Dawn.
borderdawn
07-01-2006, 08:12 PM
Another thing that interests me about Lukes thread, and I do feel you posted it because of your asking several members about Elsa Luke, where would anyone who had a moggy Cat find a SUITABLE stud Cat from? Any respectable breeder wouldnt allow it, so where do you go? Let the Cat out and away you go? The risk of infectious diseases will be HUGE.
Dawn.
I see what you are saying Het, but what if it didnt work? What would of happened to Jazz then? Have you bred from her since, and the question about if it were a dog, would you do the same? I realise I am being a nosey cow :-D cant help it, comes from a family of lawyers :-D I am not judging you by any means, i am just trying to understand.
Dawn.
don't worry Dawn, quite happy to discuss it. I didn't breed from her again...I kept two gorgeous kittens and she was much happier so there was no reason to. As to what would have happened if it didn't work...well I suppose I didn't want to think about that, I suppose I could see myself that what she needed was a role...a focus, a purpose I suppose. Believe me it wasn't a spur of the moment decision...I spoke to my vet as obviously she had to have various tests done before she could go to the Tom. If it were a dog I would give the same amount of thought i.e why are these problems occuring ...is it something that can be passed on etc.
That's interesting...
Of my four girls, two - Jenny and Amber, the oldest and youngest at 13 and 3-ish - have been mothers. The other two (Snowy 11.5 and Molly 5) haven't. There is a *definite* difference which I am not convinced is just down to personalities.
Jenny and Amber are generally calmer and more sociable. They are also lazier, more home-loving and unfortunately greedier - Amber is definitely tubby :oops: They also both want to be top of the pecking order - although Amber is the latest arrival, she has Snowy and Molly firmly under her paw and is after top cat position! Snowy and Molly seem not to have "grown up" and display more kittenish behaviour - dashing round like mad things occasionally, and are shyer.
Jenny and Molly both came from homes. Snowy and Amber were strays - so I don't *think* it's background.
Having said all this, all the cats are happy and, I believe, "fulfilled" in their lives and with my love for them - it's a myth that a cat will somehow be deprived if she doesn't have kittens. But I can believe it affects their personalities.
Interesting observations LMC. I definitely agree that a cat doesn't need to have kittens to be fulfilled but after my experience I am sure that in certain situations it is beneficial and in Jazzs case it made a very positive difference
borderdawn
07-01-2006, 09:57 PM
Thanks Het.:)
Dawn.
Donna
07-01-2006, 10:53 PM
Been reading with interest and not interupting up til now!!
Just like to say my first two cats ever were for me. Pets. Nothing more. I had them vaccinated and as soon as was possible, booked them in to be speyed. Didnt let them out until that was done.
I have heard all cats should have a litter, but put that down to old wives tales. My cats dont appear to have missed out. They dont know any different.
Would never think to let them breed. They are moggies. There are plenty of moggies to go round.
smudgley
07-01-2006, 11:29 PM
They haven't missed out on anything Donna - it is most definitely old wives tales.
More food for thought--Wouldn't it be silly if we thought that every female person should have at least one child :shock: I know we should never compare animals to humans but it is an interesting thought.
bobbie3917
08-01-2006, 08:17 PM
i do not agree with breeding moggies or crosses at all, yes there are cats/ppl that have opps litters and fine then the cat should be done so no more opps litter should happen. i don't agree with breeding cats just cos friends and family want 1, for 1 they could go to any rescue and get 1, 2. they soon disappear when its time for the kittens to go to there new homes.
but saying all that i have 2 Maine coons that i have bought as breeding queens. i will make sure that any kitten i breed and sell will have 100% lifetime help off me. i will always take back a kitten/cat that falls on hard times.
am i contradicting myself probably
i do not agree with breeding moggies or crosses at all, yes there are cats/ppl that have opps litters and fine then the cat should be done so no more opps litter should happen. i don't agree with breeding cats just cos friends and family want 1, for 1 they could go to any rescue and get 1, 2. they soon disappear when its time for the kittens to go to there new homes.
but saying all that i have 2 Maine coons that i have bought as breeding queens. i will make sure that any kitten i breed and sell will have 100% lifetime help off me. i will always take back a kitten/cat that falls on hard times.
am i contradicting myself probably
Fair enough bobbie but whos to say that someone with a moggy having kittens won't put the same amount of commitment in. There are plenty of pedigree breeders out there who just sell the kitten and end of story.... a cat is a cat...pedigree or not ...if you are against it for one you should be against it for all. You are making moggy owners out to be an irresponsible bunch which is wrong...we all know there are a lot of very unscrupulous pedigree breeders out there
borderdawn
08-01-2006, 08:46 PM
You are making moggy owners out to be an irresponsible bunch
Yes I think they are, are there not enough being bred by irresponsible means to supply the pet market for an awful long time? No different to breeing mongrels in my opinion.
Dawn.
bobbie3917
08-01-2006, 08:47 PM
ok maybe i put it worng
why breed a moggy? yes there are lots of pedigree breeders that take your money and run and im sure there would be many ppl that if there moggy had a litter would do as i have said i will do but why do it in the first place?
there is no standard to go by, what health checks do you do if you dont know what cat you got. yes moggy can have health problems just like pedigrees can.
Yes I think they are, are there not enough being bred by irresponsible means to supply the pet market for an awful long time? No different to breeing mongrels in my opinion.
Dawn.
and we both know how many pedigree breeders are in it for the money....breeding from queens with faults time and again for money, at least a person letting their pet mog have a litter can't be accused of being in it for financial reasons.
Whats worse...knowingly exploiting a pedigree cat for cash or letting a loved family pet have her babies accidentally or intended. Yes there are so many irresponsible owners...both pedigree and moggy.....but you just can't tar everyone with the same brush
bobbie3917
08-01-2006, 09:09 PM
when did i tar every 1 with the same brush?
where did i say that moggy breeders wouldnt take a kitten/cat back that needed help?
please dont put words to my posts that i have not typed
THANKS!
borderdawn
08-01-2006, 09:11 PM
and we both know how many pedigree breeders are in it for the money....breeding from queens with faults time and again for money, at least a person letting their pet mog have a litter can't be accused of being in it for financial reasons.
Whats worse...knowingly exploiting a pedigree cat for cash or letting a loved family pet have her babies accidentally or intended. Yes there are so many irresponsible owners...both pedigree and moggy.....but you just can't tar everyone with the same brush
Yes I agree with you there, people who mass produce dogs or Cats are definately in it for financial gain, but why produce moggy kittens when there are thousands needing homes already? Its the idiots and the irresponsible, people like Smudgley are having to clear up after and its common knowledge that all these kittens bred from "pets" will not be welcome back at the house they were bred at should anything go wrong. so what happens, more rescues! People complain about thousands of dogs being bred and being PTS every day, the very same happens with Cats, probably more so if the truth be known.
Dawn,
its common knowledge that all these kittens bred from "pets" will not be welcome back at the house they were bred at should anything go wrong. so what happens, more rescues! Dawn,
I have followed this thread with interest. I can see all sides of the coin here and hypocritically my thoughts on dog breeding and cat breeding do differ :? However, Maud one of my queens had 'accidental' kittens. I kept one kitten, the other three of her kittens I rehomed. I would always without reservation or doubt take any or all of those kittens back here if circumstances so dictated. So whilst I respect your opinions and do not disagree with a lot of what you are saying, I feel that on this occasion this was rather a sweeping statement :?
bobbie3917
08-01-2006, 09:19 PM
i know every 1 does not want a pedigree but i still cant see a reason for leting your mog have a litter. there are enough opps litters (by this i mean where the owner didnt know the cat was calling or times when cats got to gether with out the owner knowing that had been kept apart) to cover any1 wanting a mog kitten. so there is still no reason to let a mog have 1 litter
Nat, I am not arguing whether it is right or not to let a mog have kittens I am merely saying it isn't fair to tar everyone with the same brush. I would happily take any kittens back that I had been responsible for producing whether pet, pedigree accident or whatever....
borderdawn
08-01-2006, 09:27 PM
Nat, I am not arguing whether it is right or not to let a mog have kittens I am merely saying it isn't fair to tar everyone with the same brush. I would happily take any kittens back that I had been responsible for producing whether pet, pedigree accident or whatever....
How many would be in the same position as you though? Just take a look at how many are in centres and are up for sale in local papers as "accidents"
DAwn.
How many would be in the same position as you though? Just take a look at how many are in centres and are up for sale in local papers as "accidents"
DAwn.
I don't dispute that either Dawn, I am merely saying that it is unfair to tar all 'moggie' owners with the same brush :?
when did i tar every 1 with the same brush?
where did i say that moggy breeders wouldnt take a kitten/cat back that needed help?
please dont put words to my posts that i have not typed
THANKS!
bobbie I was in fact replying to Dawns post which is why I quoted it.....therefore I wasn't putting words to your posts.....no caps...thanks
Pedigree dog....where are the breeders??
http://www.catpages.co.uk/talkcats/showthread.php?p=74319&posted=1#post74319
I rest my case. I would take back my moggie kittens and not allow them to get into this state!!
bobbie3917
08-01-2006, 09:50 PM
Fran i was not replying to you sorry
Fran i was not replying to you sorry
I know you weren't Nat ;)
borderdawn
08-01-2006, 10:05 PM
Yep, typical "bred for money" scenario, and by the looks of it, didnt do much enquiring on who was buying the pups either! Disgusting.
Dawn.
Naomi
09-01-2006, 12:26 PM
Unfortunately when it comes to whether or not you would take a kitten back whether it be moggy or pedigree, I do really think that we are preaching to the converted on this one.
Without going into too much detail I know someone who has had atleast 7 litters between their cats. They don't do it for financial gain they just can't be bothered to get them 'done' It's owner's like this that we need to be encouraging to sort themselves out.
I totally agree Naomi! I imagine that everyone on here is a responsible cat owner and most of us would get our cats neutered. I help out at our local rescue centre and we always have cats looking for new homes. In the Spring there are lots of kittens, and although these are usually re-homed much more easily, there have been some years when we have had so many that we have been struggling to re-home them all. I often wonder how many of these 'cute' kittens end up in rescue after they have grown into adult cats and their novelty has worn off. There are some people, unfortunately that just do not think of the welfare of the cat and begrudge the cost of neutering or just can't be bothered. With people like this rescue centres will never go out of business! We once had someone bring in a GSD who was in whelp, once she had weaned the pups, we were requested to re-home them and she wanted mum back!! :shock: This couple had 7 greyhounds and greyhounds x too. Our Daisy is one of those dogs and although I don't think she was mis-treated, she was very thin and nervous, they obviously couldn't cope with so many dogs.
For what it's worth, mainly due to my experiences with rescue, this is my opinion. I do not agree that it is ever necessary to let your cat have "just one litter" even if you have homes lined up for the kittens. Something can go wrong, the cat could have more kittens than expected, those kittens for whatever reason could end up needing a new home in the future and you are taking valuable potential homes from cats/kittens in rescue centres. You cannot be sure of the health status of the tom either. I think there are enough pedigree breeders around too. On several occasions we have had persian cats in our rescue centre, usually very matted, as the owner cannot cope with the coat. We had 3 Devon Rexes once, and it took some time to re-home them. I always rescue cats rather than kittens and have taken on a few real oldies just so they can spend their last few months in comfort! I really am too soft! I do think that on here though we are talking to the converted!!
As a breeder of Persians I have read this thread carefully before deciding to post. Firstly I have to say I believe moggy kittens should be neutered at 6 months if not sooner as I should any pedigree kittens, of any breed, that are sold as pets. There are plenty of unwanted cats and kittens in rescues and this number just continues to rise due to nothing more than neglect and irresponsibility. I agree accidents do happen, the queen may silent call, call very early, get out etc, but do they have to keep having accidents???
As for the comment that pedigree cats have inherited conditions, this is true in many of the breeds, but allowing your female moggy to go out and mate with the local tom that you have no idea as to what it's health status is potentially fatal. Responsible breeders, and there are quite a lot of us, screen for inherited conditions and viruses, annually vaccinate our adults, feed quality foods, do not rehome our neuters when they are too old or didn't breed well. All my kittens leave me at a minimum of 13 weeks, not 6-8 weeks that moggies leave their mum's at, are fully vaccinated, unlike moggies, have 6 weeks health insurance, very seldom seen with moggy kittens. The new owners are given a kitten pack which consists of litter tray, scoop and litter, feeding bowls, mat and bag of food, toys and a cat book, blanket and a guide which I have written myself. This all helps continuity in the new home, how many moggy kittens get that. Every kitten I sell whether it is to a pet, breed or show home is sold with a contract. The contract states that the kitten has to come back to me if the new owners can no longer look after the cat/kitten, and I have had to take two back under this, these two have now been rehomed with a friend. It also states that a pet kitten cannot be breed from and has to be neutered at 6 months, I also withhold the paperwork until I have confirmation of this from their vet. I also say that if a cat/kitten is not properly fed, cared for or given appropiate vet care I can take the cat/kitten back without recompense to the new owners, I have also had to do this with two cats from the same household, these two are still with me and will stay here forever. It is mentioned on this thread that people breed cats for money, while I know this is true please do not ever mistake the responsible breeder for one of these people. If do properly there is very little if any profit to be made. Last year I had three litters, 11 kittens in all, within a week of the births 4 had died leaving 7. They all went to loving pet homes at £300 each. Lot of money I hear you say!! Not when you consider one girl had a section at £300, neutering of that girl, my new stud cat died at 10 months old leaving vet bills of over £1000 put that with the food bills and litter bills for the kittens and the adult cats, the costof the 7 lots of kitten vaccinations plus my adults boosters, kitten packs, registration and the list goeson and on. You can see that I made a loss last year. I hear you say..."Why do it?".. I do it to try and improve the breed and not for any money gain. If by chance there is a little profit some year it goes to my cats. Unlike moggies, if we didn't breed our pedigrees then the breeds would be lost forever. But please be careful when buying a pedigree kitten go to a reputable breeder. If people contnue to buy from irresponsible breeders, both pedigree and moggies,they will continue to do it because for them it is easy money.
borderdawn
10-01-2006, 07:39 PM
Good post Kay, I agree. I got all those things, bar the litter tray with Wiggy, and as should be, the breeder is at the end of a phone line, willing to step in should it be necessary, I think we will all agree thats a responsible breeder.
Interesting the thread starter has not commented since he posted the thread, Luke where are you??
Dawn.
Excellent post Kay. I know there are a lot of good responsible breeders around, but I found your post a real eye opener!
Thanks Dawn and Kim. It is done out of love and respect of the breed as a lot of breeders but you tend to only hear about the bad ones... as in everything.
Didn't realise my post was that long though.:oops: :oops: :oops:
Hi, i thought i would stick my beak in here!
There are thousands of unwanted cats and kittens in rescues, and very few are for what i would call sincere reasons. Thats a whole other topic though,
basically my feeling is if youre gonna get a cat try the shelters first. BUT there are many genuinely loving caring people who get turned away by shelters for wahtever reasons, I cant get one from them cos i have a child under 5, depsite the fact i already have a kitten and 2 cats!
If you get a cat get it spayed. I really think the majority of people only breed fromt hier cats cos they think it a good way to make some money.
I do personally think that a cat should be allowed one litter, i mean whoa re we to deprive them ahving children? we dont tell our neighbours tog et spade so they cant have children, but do our pets.
If i had a female cat that had kittens i would keep at least one, and ensure the rest went to good homes, and say if ever they became unwanted i would take them back in.
BUT i would certainly not allow more than one litter, there are too many unwanteds out there alread
borderdawn
11-01-2006, 02:39 PM
I do personally think that a cat should be allowed one litter, i mean whoa re we to deprive them ahving children?
We are their owners, the people who own them, care for them and make the decisions for them! They are Cats!
Dawn.
Naomi
11-01-2006, 04:26 PM
I don't think we can really compare people to cats.
As owners we are responsible for the wellbeing of our pets.
Cats are not human - I do not think they need children!!!! :? If everyone allowed their cat to have "just one litter" there would be thousands more kittens to find homes for! Sorry, not meaning to be rude, but you seem to understand the rescue situation but then say you think cats should have 1 litter! :? :?
Cats are not human - I do not think they need children!!!! :? If everyone allowed their cat to have "just one litter" there would be thouands more kittens to find homes for! Sorry, not meaning to be rude, but you seem to understand the rescue situation but then say you think cats should have 1 litter! :? :?
Have to agree with you, Kim. There are plenty of unwanted moggies, cats and kittens, born "by accident" without having every queen having a litter then every one of her daughters and so on and so on. Does it also apply that every tom cat should father a litter? After all we don't take that pleasure away from humans do we. Again not having a go.:? :? :?
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