View Full Version : Limits to veterinary intervention????
dinahsmum
06-01-2006, 10:13 AM
Did you watch Super Vets last night?
What did you think of 'Harry' and the surgery he underwent? (apart from the fact that Harry was just gorgeous?)
Sitting here now, in the happy position of not having a desparately sick young cat, I think I would be very reluctant to have my babe go through anything like that. They said he was the runt of the litter and not terribly well since birth - perhaps it would have been kinder to let (or help) him fade away at the start? :(
On a wider and much more mercenary tack. There was an article in the paper yesterday about the advances in vet surgery and the fact that operations/procedures costing £10 000 and more are becoming more common. I'm not sure about this. Apart from anything else it will make pet insurance costs rocket, which can't be a good thing if it puts people off taking it.
It would be interesting to hear other opinions and experiences.
I didn't see it, but read about it in the paper.
I thought that the cat should have been given a dignified departure rather than being put through the stress and expense of an operation.
Animals don't fear pain and death like we do - which means that they also can't imagine "beyond pain" to a time of recovery - they live in the present.
Jenny had to have an operation for mast cell tumours (skin cancer) about 2.5 years ago. It's very uncommon in cats and can stay dormant for years with no pain or distress to the cat - or spread to internal organs, which obviously is painful. Obviously large areas of skin had to be removed in the three tumour areas and the cuts "pulled together" and stitched. Which meant that poor Jenny was very sore and terribly bruised - I nearly cried when I picked her up from the vet, she looked like she'd been in an accident. There and then, much as I love her, I swore that if the cancer came back, I wouldn't do that to her again, particularly as there is an option to treat with steroids if it comes back (although the vet didn't recommend initially).
My first question to the vet of course was if Jenny was in pain, and while the cancer is on the skin, there is no pain. So if the cancer comes back, and the steroids give her bad side effects, then I will take her off them and just have regular vetinerary checks to check that it hasn't spread to start causing her pain. I would rather she had a shorter but happy life, than one prolonged by steroid side effects - because she wouldn't understand that it was for her own good as we would... as we all know from trying to give our cats pills!
Just because something can be done, doesn't make it right. Even if that cat survives, he will have a long haul to recovery. Keeping your pet alive "at all costs" - not just financially, but to the pet, is just plain selfish.
True love is letting them be the animals they are.
And giving them the dignity of a pain-free departure if necessary.
dinahsmum
06-01-2006, 10:56 AM
"True love is letting them be the animals they are."
How very well put.
I did see it and i would probably have thought twice about putting a cat of mine through that. On the other hand....it was the first time the actual op had ever been successful and one would hope that it paves the way to this operation being more widely available, the techniques refined and therefore saving more pets. Veterinary science has to be practised to be developed, although of course the line is very fine between practice and experimentation I suppose. Its a difficult choice and I don't think I know which way I would go until I was actually in that situation
I didnt see the programme but at the same time I also read it in the paper.
And I would not have put a cat (or animal) of mine through an operation like that. Easy to say as I do not have a poorly ill cat.
But I would rather have let mine have a dignifed end rather than prolonged treatment.
I sometimes wonder if people get caught up in "getting the animal better than the animal themselves" they loose sight of whats the best for the cat and get caught up in the "solution" a lady I know whose cat has CRF like Oscar did keeps her cat going with "drips, fluids etc etc etc" but the cat in my OWN opinion has no life no pleasure is left in his life.
Is the fact she loves him enough to keep him alive? Or should that be the reason she lets him go, because she loves him?
dinahsmum
06-01-2006, 05:21 PM
If the only reason for staying alive is not being dead, that is no basis for living.
Human or animal
Does that make sense?
I think it applies particularly to cats.
:(
If the only reason for staying alive is not being dead, that is no basis for living.
Human or animal
Does that make sense?
I think it applies particularly to cats.
:(
I think that makes perfect sense.
It is so difficult sometimes to do what is best for the pet, when to decide that they have been through enough and the time has come to let them have a dignified death. As most of you know I went through this situation recently with my dog Ben. He had an operation in July for his spondylitis and I am pleased we went ahead with it as it may have given him a new lease of life. It did make a difference although not significantly. However, when he was so poorly 3 weeks ago the vet thought enough was enough and I agreed. This was not without guilt, but it would have been selfish of me to put him through any more treatment.
Kim, you did the kindest act you could for Ben and put him first......:(
Naomi
06-01-2006, 09:46 PM
I saw it and told hubby about it. We both agreed that it would have been kinder to have had him PTS.
borderdawn
06-01-2006, 10:01 PM
"If" harry, lives a normal life for the next X amount of years, being happy and has a good quality of life, dont you think it will of been worth it?
Dawn.
Snoof
06-01-2006, 10:16 PM
I didn't see the programme, so I don't know what Harry had, or how gruelling the operation and the subsequent recovery were. Please bear that in mind before jumping at me claws out :lol:
If the chances of recovery were good, and the quality of life to be expected after the procedure were good, then I might put my cat through surgery that may initially be awful for them. It does depend on the recovery time - if it were going to take my cat a year of all-out pain to recover, then probably not, for reasons already mentioned. But if it were a painful surgery he would recover from in 2 days... Then no contest.
Naomi
06-01-2006, 10:33 PM
If i remeber correctly he had open heart surgey. The vet had attempted open heart surgery on 2 previous cats and had failed on both occassions.
I have been in this position to a degree. I had a cat that had a nasty car accident. The vets couldn't believe he had survived and he had horrific injuries. The worst of his injuries left him with a cleft palatte. The vets told me that the chance of surgery to repair the cleft palette was good and as soon as he was well enough he underwent surgery. It didn't work and the wound broke down :( He underwent this procedure 3 or 4 times each time it was unsuccessful. In the end the vets wanted to wire his mouth and tube feed him to allow time for the surgery to work and at this point I said no more and had him pts. The vets did all in their power to get me to change my mind but after several attempts which had failured each time and then to have the prospect of him having his jaw wired and be tube fed I thought that I was not being unreasonable saying no...
Rip Benson x
Naomi
06-01-2006, 10:40 PM
What a difficult position to be in Fran :(
RIP Benson
That was awful Fran.....it makes one wonder if these vets just want to see if they can do the impossible:(
dinahsmum
07-01-2006, 02:38 PM
Harry had an enormous heart defect - not a hole in the heart - more the oposite. One chamber was so constricted it was as if all his life blood had to be pumped through a space hardly bigger than a blood vessel. He had angiograms (under sedation/anaesthetic) to confirm the diagnosis and assist the surgeon prepare.:(
His friend Jacob had to donate blood.
He was shaved totally, from neck to tail pre-op. He shrank to the back of the cage when they went to pick him out for the surgery.:(
The programme was left on a knife edge (no pun intended) where he had made it though the op but you didn't know if he would survive the night ('spect he does; the prog will be a big let down if not)
There seems to be a consensus here and I would go along - if a young animal had an accident and had to live as an amputee, or without an eye, I wouldn't hesitate to go ahead with the surgery. It would stop the post-accident pain anyway. I don't think I'd go for much else. Skin things, cysts etc - fine, routine, get rid of them - esp as they are likely to get damaged in normal living. Teeth - of course. Major internal stuff - I don't think so. But - it's very easy to say that when it's not your babe.
Fran - I think you did the right and the brave thing. Poor Benson.
dinahsmum
12-01-2006, 09:26 PM
Second episode of the Super Vets in 5 minutes.
We'll find out about Harry :(
Second episode of the Super Vets in 5 minutes.
We'll find out about Harry :(
Just seen it DM. Harry seems to be doing quite well despite his 'set back' Really felt for that Reindeer though, think they should have pts not let her die in her sleep :(
CathyW
12-01-2006, 11:09 PM
because im not working ive been taking barnaby to the pdsa,and i cant say enough about them,they have been brilliant with him,he has been treated so well,and they wont pts an animal un-nesary they will discuss the situation with you,eplore all options,they did this when my old dog truman was back n forth,he was 18 and his back legs fianlly went,and although he wasnt in any pain,he had no dignity, so 2 vets stayed with me and 2 nuses,and one by one they left me with him to say good bye,one nurse hovvered in the background, as i said b4 they are 100% commited to animal care,and they are not in it for the money.
dinahsmum
13-01-2006, 09:55 AM
Well I watched it again.
Poor Taggy :( Poor owners - £10 000!
It's hard but we need to accept that our animals are not immortal:(
(I think the reindeer should have been put down too - poor old soul)
Naomi
13-01-2006, 10:53 AM
I saw it too. Poor reindeer and poor Taggy, 5 weeks in hospital. Her poor owners faces when they saw her wounds :(
dinahsmum
13-01-2006, 11:38 AM
I saw it too. Poor reindeer and poor Taggy, 5 weeks in hospital. Her poor owners faces when they saw her wounds :(
Indeed. I wondered if the vets had been totally honest about the chances for Taggy. That would be tough for a human to go through - poor animal can't understand at all.................and just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. :(
I almost watched it then took the girls out for a walk instead. But saw the cat's owner when she said he was poorly again and then the vets had to drain the fluid. I can't see it was doing him any good.
Is it a case these days of because we can we will, I mean the if you look at the way the choice may be laid out "spend the money and he lives don't and he dies" could mean people who are already distressed by a poorly animal will think "I can't loose him but for money" hence they spend it. And once you are started down that road how and when do you draw the line?
I myself hope I would not take that route. And look at it from the animals point of view not my own.
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