Or Register for FREE!


Welcome to our Cat Forums!
Welcome to our CatForums!
You are seeing this message because you are viewing our cat forums as a guest.

You can continue to browse our many cat related areas as a guest but you are more than welcome to register and join our friendly community of Cat Lovers! ... And for free!

Doing so will also remove this message and some of the ads, such as the one on the left.

Please click here to register.

Reply

calismum's Avatar
Catsey Veteran
 
Cats owned: Two Tabby Girls
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 5,052
30-08-2008, 03:39 PM   #11

Re: Veganism


difficult one - If you consider our dentition we were never meant to be vegan/vegatarian.

However, we do have lots of suppliments etc. available to us so I reckon it has to be personal choice - as long as a child gets the correct nutrition does it matter.

If you look at the diet some children have then perhaps a vegan one would be better!

CM



Reply With Quote


Elaine's Avatar
Catsey Veteran
 
Cats owned: 2 moggies
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 15,256
30-08-2008, 09:05 PM   #12

Re: Veganism


I have no problem with peoples choice to become vegan/vegitarian and yes I agree that many children have a really unhealthy diet anyway.
I also understand Kims points about the cows etc.
Elvisisboss, I would be interested in viewing whats on offer at the online shop, can you pm me the link please?
The point i am making is, should you be vegan and bring your child up as vegan, which you may well do perfectly well and make sure that they are getting all the nutrients etc, but if they are invited to birthday parties, the parent of the child having the party is not knowledgable on veganism or even if a vegan child is invited. How would the child cope under these circumstances? I guess i am trying to get at how a child is expected to cope outside of the family home?
My personal view is that children should be encouraged to think, discuss and make the choices about such things when they are old enough to do so and not be put into a situation whereby they feel different or maybe even left out of social events because of the parents views.



Reply With Quote


dandysmom's Avatar
Catsey Veteran
 
Cats owned: Leia: blue torbie
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Washington, DC, USA
Posts: 31,378
30-08-2008, 09:40 PM   #13

Re: Veganism


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine
I have no problem with peoples choice to become vegan/vegitarian and yes I agree that many children have a really unhealthy diet anyway.
I also understand Kims points about the cows etc.
Elvisisboss, I would be interested in viewing whats on offer at the online shop, can you pm me the link please?
The point i am making is, should you be vegan and bring your child up as vegan, which you may well do perfectly well and make sure that they are getting all the nutrients etc, but if they are invited to birthday parties, the parent of the child having the party is not knowledgable on veganism or even if a vegan child is invited. How would the child cope under these circumstances? I guess i am trying to get at how a child is expected to cope outside of the family home?
My personal view is that children should be encouraged to think, discuss and make the choices about such things when they are old enough to do so and not be put into a situation whereby they feel different or maybe even left out of social events because of the parents views.
I agree completely with that, Elaine.



Reply With Quote


Catsey Senior
 
Cats owned: nnnnnn
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: uk uk
Posts: 450
31-08-2008, 08:25 AM   #14

Re: Veganism


hiya my sister would cook or feed her child meat, my cousin however is veggie BUT gives her 2 boys meat, she said it is up to them when they get older.

but my sister is so driven by being vegan & changing the world into vegans that she would not do it!

the thing is if the child is invited to a birthday all you have to do is tell them to buy some swedish glace ice cream, OR you can buy cornettoes, magnums, ice lollys, all 'look' like the 'real thing' but arent, or take your own, so the child never feels left out, i mean say the child had a dairy allergy anyway? same thing would have to happen!

Ill pm you my sisters site & some shops!

i dont eat red meat (just decided not to when i was 10) always ate chicken but now due to health problems i cant i also cat eat eggs due to allergies and health......or wheat.....gluten.......sugar........! all for health & being tested for it reasons

i do on occasion have sugar though, and wheat but def not the rest or id be seriously ill *sniff*



Reply With Quote


Elaine's Avatar
Catsey Veteran
 
Cats owned: 2 moggies
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 15,256
31-08-2008, 09:30 AM   #15

Re: Veganism


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvisisboss
hiya my sister would cook or feed her child meat, my cousin however is veggie BUT gives her 2 boys meat, she said it is up to them when they get older.

but my sister is so driven by being vegan & changing the world into vegans that she would not do it!

the thing is if the child is invited to a birthday all you have to do is tell them to buy some swedish glace ice cream, OR you can buy cornettoes, magnums, ice lollys, all 'look' like the 'real thing' but arent, or take your own, so the child never feels left out, i mean say the child had a dairy allergy anyway? same thing would have to happen!

Ill pm you my sisters site & some shops!

i dont eat red meat (just decided not to when i was 10) always ate chicken but now due to health problems i cant i also cat eat eggs due to allergies and health......or wheat.....gluten.......sugar........! all for health & being tested for it reasons

i do on occasion have sugar though, and wheat but def not the rest or id be seriously ill *sniff*
I get your point
Thanx for the links too.



Reply With Quote


Catsey Senior
 
Cats owned: nnnnnn
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: uk uk
Posts: 450
31-08-2008, 10:46 AM   #16

Re: Veganism


lol thats ok! i mean my kids (not my cats lol) will eat choci and ice cream, in moderation!

but i did feel sorry for him at first but then her baby seems to eat more than us with all the things he has that are dairy/animal free!

all looks well nice as well!

although some of it does taste like poop!



Reply With Quote


Kim's Avatar
Kim Kim is offline
Catsey Veteran
 
Cats owned: 1 mog
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 3,848
31-08-2008, 08:57 PM   #17

Re: Veganism


Quote:
Originally Posted by farthing
Sorry, I have to disagree that a vegan diet is natural, as an all meat diet is unnatural, we are naturally omnivores. As I said previously, if you cannot get the required vitamins, whatever from a diet without suppliments it can't be natural. What you do find is that many of the soya milks etc are supplied with the suppliments added, such as B12. I would agree that vegans, if they take suppliments are probably healthier than the general public, because they are more aware of general nutrition and don't eat the rubbish we normally do.
My concern as far as children are concerned, is whether any research has been done to see the affects of a vegan diet on them, and if they do recieve all the nutrients a growing body needs.
I agree about the ethics of veganism and do have qualms about taking milk, but I have my own chickens, who will live here until they die so don't really worry about having my own eggs, it is difficult to avoid eggs in the outside world though.
Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, which I respect, but I would just like to respond to a couple of points you raise.

There is a lot of disagreement on what we're meant to eat "naturally", but what I do know is that our entire lives are far from "natural". I mean, how "natural" is it for us to use computers? If you were to strip life back to its "natural" form then we'd be living in caves again. For starters, besides the fact that due to our evolution we have now "progressed" to living in purpose built "caves" called "houses" with all the mod cons, we are no longer able to live the kind of "natural" lives a lot of meat eaters seem to aspire to. But also, if you look at our physical abilities, where do you find proof that we are natural omnivores? I'm sorry, but nature doesn't provide for a "natural option" of building physiques made for eating little bits of flesh that have been cooked, fried or baked - to my knowledge a cooker and a frying pan, or a knife to cut the meat to bite size pieces for that matter, are NOT natural implements. If we were naturally destined to eat meat we'd have strong jaws with long canines and sharp teeth in them. The teeth we have just cannot tear through skin with fur or feathers and rip pieces of flesh off a carcass.

And "if you can't get the required vitamins without supplements it can't be natural" .... well, produce, whether or not of plant origin, is so devoid of what used to be its natural nutrient content through mass produce, cold house storage and what have you, that I doubt that you can derive optimal nutrition from a 'meat and two veg' diet as it is. Most food production as it is is far from natural, what without green houses, use of pesticides, and the amount of antibiotics and growth hormones in animal feed. CJD for example is caused by animals getting fed ground up parts of other, diseased animals - please do tell me how natural it is for a cow to eat ground up sheep?!

"I would agree that vegans, if they take suppliments are probably healthier than the general public, because they are more aware of general nutrition and don't eat the rubbish we normally do."

This says it all really: if you're thinking that being vegan isn't "natural", but you reckon that vegans, who take care of their nutritional intake, are healthier than meat eaters who don't, then what are we discussing? What's the bottom line of this discussion: how you stay healthiest or whether we should continue eating rubbish because at some point it was natural to tear a raw bird apart!

I'm not sure if all vegans, who take supplements, are more healthy than the general public per se - the way I see it any diet can be healthy or unhealthy, it really is a case of variety, little sugar, fat and salt (which can all be vegan!), a decent amount of fibre and fresh produce. Many apples you buy at this time of year will have been in cold storage since May - I would not want to make any bets on the vitamin content of those. On the other hand, humans are a hardy species and seem to be able to survive on a diet that is nutritionally completely inadequate, combined with tobacco, alcohol, an unhealthy living environment, stress and no exercise to speak of.

As for raising children on a vegan diet, this link to the Vegan Society website might be useful. However, as far as I am aware children who have been raised on a vegan diet are all healthy happy children, and why shouldn't they be? There's also a good book for aspiring vegans called "Becoming Vegan", that gives the answers to many questions.

A cyber friend on another forum has been vegan for many years and very healthy, she knows of a lady who has kept her own bone cancer in check for 30(!!!) years, using alternative therapies (i.e. not covered by the NHS) and a virtually raw, vegan diet! And if that isn't enough she is STILL lifting weights and competing in her class at international level! This is her website. This same cyber friend feeds her dogs a vegan, homecooked diet, this diet, apart from the occasional treat, does not contain processed foods with additives or "by-products of meat and animal origin". According to her vet, dogs are not "obligate carnivores", which means that, although they are meat eaters, they do not need this to survive in good health. Her vet is completely aware of what she gives them and has commented that her dogs are better fed than some dogs he gets in his practice - or indeed humans! Another vet at the same practice was very sceptical to start with about their diet, but she was the one who got the lab's diagnosis back, saying that her dog has lymphoma, and has seen him over the months while he was receiving treatment. She has now admitted that more close contact with a 'vegan dog' has completely changed her mind! My dogs are fed a meat diet, so although I do not intend to make them vegan, I don't think dogs have to eat meat to be healthy, just as with humans.

Sorry about the novel, this is a subject (you may have guessed! ) that I have strong feelings about.



Reply With Quote


Catsey Veteran
 
Cats owned: dsh
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 1,590
31-08-2008, 09:22 PM   #18

Re: Veganism


Kim, sorry to hit a nerve but my info comes from my experience with herbivorous animals (who also often suffer from B12 deficiency) and the vegan society website.
"Many herbivorous mammals, including cattle and sheep, absorb B12 produced by bacteria in their own digestive system. B12 is found to some extent in soil and plants. These observations have led some vegans to suggest that B12 was an issue requiring no special attention, or even an elaborate hoax. Others have proposed specific foods, including spirulina, nori, tempeh, and barley grass, as suitable non-animal sources of B12. Such claims have not stood the test of time. "
The biggest arguement for us being omnivores is our dentition.
Herbivores have permanantly growing back teeth and a diastema between the molars and canines, carnivores have large carnasial teeth and large canines, we fall between the 2, sugeesting we have a similar diet to the likes of pigs, who are naturally omnivores.
I have no issue with what people eat and admire those who stick by their morals, but I firmly believe that humans are onmivores, as I agree dogs are now.

I also agree that our lifestyle is no longer natural, but at no time did I say being vegan was wrong.



Reply With Quote


dandysmom's Avatar
Catsey Veteran
 
Cats owned: Leia: blue torbie
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Washington, DC, USA
Posts: 31,378
31-08-2008, 09:50 PM   #19

Re: Veganism


Quote:
Originally Posted by farthing
Kim, sorry to hit a nerve but my info comes from my experience with herbivorous animals (who also often suffer from B12 deficiency) and the vegan society website.
"Many herbivorous mammals, including cattle and sheep, absorb B12 produced by bacteria in their own digestive system. B12 is found to some extent in soil and plants. These observations have led some vegans to suggest that B12 was an issue requiring no special attention, or even an elaborate hoax. Others have proposed specific foods, including spirulina, nori, tempeh, and barley grass, as suitable non-animal sources of B12. Such claims have not stood the test of time. "
The biggest arguement for us being omnivores is our dentition.
Herbivores have permanantly growing back teeth and a diastema between the molars and canines, carnivores have large carnasial teeth and large canines, we fall between the 2, sugeesting we have a similar diet to the likes of pigs, who are naturally omnivores.
I have no issue with what people eat and admire those who stick by their morals, but I firmly believe that humans are onmivores, as I agree dogs are now.
Well said, farthing!



Reply With Quote


Kim's Avatar
Kim Kim is offline
Catsey Veteran
 
Cats owned: 1 mog
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 3,848
01-09-2008, 07:41 PM   #20

Re: Veganism


Farthing, I have no issues with those who eat meat either and I have been a meat eater for most of my life, even though am a vegetarian now, but the more I hear about animals and how they are treated before they become part of the food chain the more I aspire to become vegan. My dogs eat meat and although I admire those who feed their dogs a vegetarian diet, I don't think I could actually do it myself. Therefore I mainly agree with you, but I just don't agree that humans & dogs have to be omnivores, although historically we clearly were, I don't think this is necessary today, so we will just have to agree to disagree over that! Anyway, I said a lot in my 'novel' post, so shall leave the subject now.....



Reply With Quote

Reply