People against accidental litters/casual breeding

[Az]

Hi All

I was just wondering if those of you who are against casual breeding/accidental litters would like to get together and adapt this article to reflect on the cat world, to put on Catsey.

Thinking About Breeding? Think about this... (http://www.dogsey.com/dog-articles.php?t=12589)

It's our most read article on Dogsey, and was written by SB (who sadly is no longer with us :().

I think much of the article is relative to cats, but obviously the statistics would need changing and the article tuned more towards cats - but it makes a great starting point, and I'm sure SB wouldn't have minded us using it.

Why?

Because articles like that, can be used to help make people aware of the plight of all those animals in rescue. And why willy nilly breeding is not acceptable to any true animal lover. Hopefully it will make people think twice, and even if it helps to prevent one single casual litter - it will have done it's job.

It can also then be posted in threads where nescessery - and as all the points are clearly laid out, it helps prevent people getting frustrated and angry.

At the end of the day it's about ramming the message home in an acceptable manner, and articles like this (and linking to them in threads) is the best way to do that.

So... who's up for it?

So what's Catsey's take on it?

As a cat lovers website, we have to look at the whole picture and see what is responsible and what's not. Obviously we are against back yard breeding and kitten farming. Although we have no problem with ethical, responsible breeding.

Where does accidental matings fall? Well I guess that depends on the personal circumstances and whether the owner has actually been responsible or not. We all make mistakes, and some are more genuine than others. At the end of the day, all we can do is write articles and put our views across in an amicable manner in the hope that others will take on the same ideals.

When it come's to people's personal threads, then there's no need to go OTT and there's no need to not have a say either - so long as it is done in an adult, non aggressive, non condescending tone. Sometimes it suffice to say just how dissappointed you are and link to the article that explains why you feel the way you do.

Obviously I'm talking about genuine mistakes, and not someone pulling the 'accident card' each time their cat gets pregnant!

[Elaine]

I have made many such posts and links to the plight of cats as i am sure others have also.
Nothing changes here because people dont have the balls to say what they really feel. Instead they hide behind pm's but on the actual threads they aww and ahh over the poor kittens.
It has become common knowledge amongst other cat forums that Catsey tolerates and actively promotes irresponsible breeding by such behaviour.
Unless attitudes change the forum will remain the same.
For each kitten born and rehomed, it's a potential home taken away from a rescue cat in desperate need.
I may well waste my time trying to write something on the subject matter but really what is the point as it wont open the eyes of the people here that "want" kittens.

[yola]

Elaine - I hear what you're saying, but even if we collectively can do something however small to change people's attitudes then we must at least TRY!! I think Az is making a good start here to formalise Catsey's 'official' stance on spay/neuter and irresponsible breeding and it's up to us to help.

I just don't have time at the moment to research all the statistics but would happily work with you to compile a compelling and persuasive article . . . what do you think?

[charliebubs]

Good idea Az. :)

Elaine - I do think that it's worth doing the article. As Az has said.........if it changes just one person's mind then it has worked.

From a personal point of view, I do believe that it's possible to work both for rehomes/rescues and also to promte and beter a particular cat breed. I worked for years at Wood Green Animal Shelter and now help out and donate to a couple of more local rescues, and I am a GCCF registered breeding intending to breed ragdolls.

I know that not everyone agrees with breeding in the formal way (as opposed to back yard) either - but we are all entitled to our own thoughts and opinions.

This forum brought us together as a community of cat lovers regardless of old or young, moggie or pedigree, cat or kitten. :)

I think the article is a fab idea. I definitely don't agree with backyard breeding but I also believe (and know from experience) that genuine accidents can happen. :?

I hope we can all come together and do this. :)

[LucySiamese]

A friend of a friend who i dont like has 6 moggies and 2 bengals which all go outside, and she has let one of her girls get with the local tom because she likes the look of him! well the cat has just had its second litter of 7! she kept a girl from the 1st litter who will probably breed soon, she is selling them for £50 none of her cats are vaccinated and she recently went with my friends neighbour who wanted a ragdoll/cross kitten and they turned out to have cat flu! now she has gone back home to her own cats (un-vaccinated) i dont know how she would afford it if they were to get sick! i think its totally irresponsible! there are enough moggies in rescues, as people would rather take a cute kitten home until the novelty wears off!
Ive told my friend the rspca offer to spey your cat if you hand the litter over so there is no excuse! Im not to keen on the rspca but i do think this is a good idea, at least they find good homes for the kittens and stop there being anymore (accidental litters!)

[charliebubs]

A friend of a friend who i dont like has 6 moggies and 2 bengals which all go outside, and she has let one of her girls get with the local tom because she likes the look of him! well the cat has just had its second litter of 7! she kept a girl from the 1st litter who will probably breed soon, she is selling them for £50 none of her cats are vaccinated and she recently went with my friends neighbour who wanted a ragdoll/cross kitten and they turned out to have cat flu! now she has gone back home to her own cats (un-vaccinated) i dont know how she would afford it if they were to get sick! i think its totally irresponsible! there are enough moggies in rescues, as people would rather take a cute kitten home until the novelty wears off!
Ive told my friend the rspca offer to spey your cat if you hand the litter over so there is no excuse! Im not to keen on the rspca but i do think this is a good idea, at least they find good homes for the kittens and stop there being anymore (accidental litters!)

Gosh, that's terrible. Unfortunately it's people like her who tend to give us all a bad name. :(

I do not agree at all with what she is doing. When my Lily (ragdoll) got accidently mated by a Tom who broke into my safe catproofed garden I was in hell for 12 weeks waiting for her FIV/FeLV tests to come back. Not a great feeling and a HUGE worry. Why would people want that?!?!

[borderdawn]

Thanks for this opportunity Azz, I will make my feelings felt again, and I can tell you I speak for a LOT who wont!

Catsey is a small Cat forum and to begin with I loved it, just like dogsey, I really did, then, slowly I began to question a lot that went on, often ending up in locked threads.

Think about this, Dogsey is a MASSIVE site, a site I adore, yes I have my scraps, but the site I love and am very proud to be part of, catsey SHOULD be the same, but it isnt. It has a very small number of "regular" visitors, mainly those from the beginning, their loyalty is commendable, and I have come to like very much many of them, truly I have, their Cats also.

I can tell you honestly, the main reason people do not stick around on here, is because its seen as a site that actively condones the irresponsible breeding of moggy Cats. I am sick to death of reading "oh its done now, lets carry on" its a disgrace, and any site seen to promote such disgraceful and irresponsible animal welfare is not going to be visited by people who genuinely care for Cats and their wellbeing. I am disgusted with the attitude of people on here who are giving the impression that this sort of activity is "ok" then those hypocrites turn round and say to people like Smudgley "oh poor kittens" well that is another thing that has incenced people on other forums too, the work people like her put in, then people like those who allow their moggy Cats to be mated, act as if they genuinely care about the work she does, when they are doing nothing but contribute to that very problem.

I visit other Cats forums too, every day there are 4/5 or more new pages, new members etc.. just like Dogsey, but Ill tell you now, this site in its current state will never get there, and covering it up in a "breeders" section is a disgrace too, it serves only to show people its ok but "dont tell anyone else" I do not know of any other forum where a breeding section is excluded from other members, the cover up stinks, and as I said is seen again as Catsey actively promoting the breeding, for the most part iressponsible, of Cats. No other site I have seen frowns on RESPONSIBLE breeding, like Dogsey, responsible dog breeding is fine, why shouldnt it be.


There are commercial breeders of dogs and cats on here, and thats their choice, but these are the ones that should be promoting a responsible attitude to newcomes and experienced pet owners, but instead they say its ok to purposely allow your Cat to be mated, then give pathetic remarks like "whats done is done" do you know what that really sounds like to people who REALLY care about Cats welfare?

I think in the last couple of months there has been at least 5 or 6 unplanned (although I DOUBT thst VERY much ANY of them were unplanned) litters, all say it was an "accident" its bull**it! It was very much planned, its not rocket science to keep your cat in, its your responsibility as a decent owner to make sure your pets are safe and their welfare should be at the top of your list. If this was on Dogsey, you would be ripped to shreds for making worse a rescue situation for breeding crossbreeds without any care or consideration, wouldnt you? and I expect you'd all be there shoulding the odds, at no health checks etc. Why are cats so different? Why do you abuse these creatures in such a way that their feelings and wellbeing doesnt matter? Im finding it really hard to understand, from somebody who controls pest species, the number of feral colonies is booming, and its NOT helped by people breeding iressponsibly, its stands a fair chance (like we have seen on here) that the Cats your "pet" is mating with, carries a deadly disease, why dont you people care? and why do others say its ok? I cant get my head round it.

Luke may be young, but he's old enough to walk/train a puppy, and having been told on here more than once about Bella being allowed to roam, he DID know the consequences of his actions, Im simply not interested in any excuses for ANY of the "accidental" litters on here, they were ALL avoidable. You more "experienced" breeders have set no example to youngsters have you?

An article "may" help, I dont think it will hurt, but I seriously doubt, given the attitude of some of the people on here, it will do any good, I really dont, which is a shame, but yes if it did stop one litter it would be a help.

So thats my thoughts, given the amount of emails I have recieved, you can expect Catsey's posts to drop even more, several steadfast members and dedicated Cat welfare people do not want association with it any longer, I understand that, like I said, and you all know, I am outspoken, I always tell it how I see it, but for this once, I just stopped looking untill I was emailed about recent events, you should be ashamed of yourselves, breeding on this scale with no care or consideration is a disgrace, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Im sorry if that offends, but its the truth.
Dawn.

[Emm]

First of all I think the article is an excellant idea!

I have made many such posts and links to the plight of cats as i am sure others have also.
Nothing changes here because people dont have the balls to say what they really feel. Instead they hide behind pm's but on the actual threads they aww and ahh over the poor kittens.
It has become common knowledge amongst other cat forums that Catsey tolerates and actively promotes irresponsible breeding by such behaviour.
Unless attitudes change the forum will remain the same.
For each kitten born and rehomed, it's a potential home taken away from a rescue cat in desperate need.
I may well waste my time trying to write something on the subject matter but really what is the point as it wont open the eyes of the people here that "want" kittens.

The fact that people are pm ing other people and talking about them - I find quite upsetting.
I have never thought that Catsey is about promoting irresponsible breeding. Yes accidents will happen but hopefully if we can work together on this article it may educate people who find these forums looking for advice. And that has to be a positive thing.

I've already made myself clear before on what my stance is - I would like to see compulsory neutering and the registration of all breeders - to protect the genuine breeders out there.

However we do have a great problem in this country and I have to say rescues themselves instead of judging so harshly maybe should look at themselves as well. My experiance has been a very negative one of people involved in cat rescues. I know there good people out there doing good work but this is my experiance from them. I have found them to be very unapproachable and very unwilling to help or even offer advice. When a cat is in need of help I have people coming to my door looking for help because they can't get any help from cat charities. I would love to volunteer myself to help - but they don't want my help - they would rather just sit back and judge other people.

It takes a long time to change attitudes - but every-one has to work together and keep a positive outlook on the subject and talk openly about it. Bashing other people for making mistakes and making them feel like a worthless piece of cr*p isn't the answer - and isn't going to get people to listen to your point of view.

[LucySiamese]

Gosh, that's terrible. Unfortunately it's people like her who tend to give us all a bad name. :(

I do not agree at all with what she is doing. When my Lily (ragdoll) got accidently mated by a Tom who broke into my safe catproofed garden I was in hell for 12 weeks waiting for her FIV/FeLV tests to come back. Not a great feeling and a HUGE worry. Why would people want that?!?!



I dont know why people would want to risk theire cats health! they say they love theire cats and let them go with any tom, ive openly told my friend i disagree with what her mate is doing. :evil:

[babycakes]

First of all I think the article is an excellant idea!


It takes a long time to change attitudes - but every-one has to work together and keep a positive outlook on the subject and talk openly about it. Bashing other people for making mistakes and making them feel like a worthless piece of cr*p isn't the answer - and isn't going to get people to listen to your point of view.

I have to agree Emm. Yes I do feel that Catsey members should have their say and I think quite rightly too as it is a problematic problem with the irresponsible / overbreeding of moggies. However as Luke chose to inform people of the issue I feel he was looking for some guidance following the incident. Also I feel he was informing us that he has responsibly found homes for the unborns.

How does this differ from breeding pedigree cats? Is it because owners make money from them? Do they breed to order? What if there is one that doesn't sell? What if after that breed non of them sell? We also have sites for unwanted pedigree kittens too. Just because you are breeding a pedigree it doesn't suddenly make it ok, but it does on catsey.
Also what would happen to those who couldn't afford to own a pedigree but love cats? What about my cat? He's a moggy and I love him to bits. Who makes the decision of what moggies breed? who decides this? Or do we just ensure in the long run that moggies die out?
I don't know the answers to these I am just posing a few questions that have kept me up last night.

[random]

I am ashamed of what happened to my cat, and for that reason i'd like my account deleted please azz, it's obvious i'm no longer a valued and/or respected member here.

Genuinely guys, it was an accident and I was actually truely and genuinely horrified to find a local tom had found it's way into our house, all of my cats are kept indoors bar one spayed female and one neutered tom where I stupidly and irresponsibly thought they were safe.

I have ultimately paid the price and do genuinely feel ashamed of myself, especially as one of the kittens I lost so early, she didn't ask to come here and she didn't ask to be taken away, but she was. And it's something I will have to live with forever.

In tears here and i'm sorry I lost your respect on this matter and I will leave the group as I am one of those sending it down the pan it seems.

[Emm]

In tears here and i'm sorry I lost your respect on this matter and I will leave the group as I am one of those sending it down the pan it seems.

Don't you dare leave! LOL

Please don't beat yourself up about an accident - we are all only human and are prone to making mistakes. That is what being human is we can make mistakes and LEARN from them and move on!
And hopefully other people will also learn from what had happened.

This is all going too far

[borderdawn]

Im sorry Random (if that was aimed at me,) but it really is how people are seeing this forum, and you so concerned about maddie have acted so responsibly I really was very shocked indeed, so were others. I also was in tears last night, for the first time, emotion took over from my anger, all these kittens being bred, has really really upset me like I thought it never ever would.
Dawn.

[Fran]

This thread has gone way off topic. The idea of this thread was to throw around ideas for the article suggested by Az. It's not meant to be a debate about responsible/irresponsible breeding :?


Can we get back on topic? Yola, that's great of you to offer to contribute to the article and I think it will be an excellent peice of work with your imput. Anybody else willing to contribute?

[babycakes]

I think this is horrendous. Can people get a grip of the situation? are we trying our best to make people feel like s**t? Does that make us feel powerful and good about ourselves? It's embarressing to genuine cat lovers really.

Don't you dare leave this site random. Your tale will help others in similar situations, isn't that what life is about education and learning experiences?

[Emm]

This thread has gone way off topic. The idea of this thread was to throw around ideas for the article suggested by Az. It's not meant to be a debate about responsible/irresponsible breeding :?


Can we get back on topic? Yola, that's great of you to offer to contribute to the article and I think it will be an excellent peice of work with your imput. Anybody else willing to contribute?

At the moment I'm unable to but in a couple of weeks if you are all still working on the article then I would love to try and help out in some way.

[random]

It wasn't aimed particularly at anyone Dawn but if people feel that way about me i'd rather leave than drag the site down if that is what people see me as doing.

It broke my heart to make the appointment for Maddy as a lot of people know and had I been irresponsible I could have went ahead and bred her anyway, I thought I was responsible but if people see me as just another byb due to what happened then that breaks my heart, hand on heart I am ashamed of what happened with my cat and that's something I have to live with knowing I contributed to the problem, which to me is punishment enough.

[Fran]

At the moment I'm unable to but in a couple of weeks if you are all still working on the article then I would love to try and help out in some way.

Thank you Emm, I'm sure it will take some time to get this article together, your imput would be very much appreciated.

[borderdawn]

It wasn't aimed particularly at anyone Dawn but if people feel that way about me i'd rather leave than drag the site down if that is what people see me as doing.

It broke my heart to make the appointment for Maddy as a lot of people know and had I been irresponsible I could have went ahead and bred her anyway, I thought I was responsible but if people see me as just another byb due to what happened then that breaks my heart, hand on heart I am ashamed of what happened with my cat and that's something I have to live with know I contributed to the problem, which to me is punishment enough.
Youre being daft now! :D NOBODY sees you as irresponsible with maddie, thats the point, why were the Cats so different?

I know accidents "can" happen, but not on the scale they happen on here Random, I totally respect your decision with Maddie, I actually think you are a very dedicated owner given the problems you have with her, you should be very proud to be working through them the way you are, some would of given up a long time ago.

The problem is, its the attitude, its the "whats done is done" scenario and "oh how wonderful" 6/7/15 moggy kittens needing homes when there are around 10,000 each year as it is! then the "oh it wasnt my fault" well it is, I know I sound a cow, but it is up to US as RESPONSIBLE ownwers to make 100% sure our pets are safe.
Dawn.

[charliebubs]

This has got off topic :?

Fran - I'll help too

Random - don't you dare leave!! As I have already said, I made an error of judgement with Lily and she got pregnant and it was the worst thing that could have happened. But I dealt with it, she was a wonderful mum, the kittens have all gone to friends and friends-of-friends and I have stayed on the board here to try and help people in similar situations and use myself and the unwanted pregnancy as an example of how not to do things!!! lol but accidents do happen.

They happen with humans too - unwanted/unplanned pregnancies are a fact of life.

However, I agree with Dawn that we are all 100% responsible to ensure that our pets are safe and our pets should come first.

[yola]

Accidents will always happen, so please let's not get personal . . . we all need to step back from this developing into an emotional tirrade and concentrate on what is important; the welfare of cats that are not spayed/neutered, why they are not and how CAN they be in order to stop unwanted kittens, disease and potentially agressive cats!

I don't want to see Random go because a randy old Tom got into her house, I don't want Charlie to feel belittled because her garden was invaded and her cat impregnated . . . but you both have excellent stories to tell about what CAN happen if your cat is not neutered despite all your precautions! Let's turn these around and not attack people but use them as a learning curve for those to come who may not be so well informed . . . please!

Now some

[LucySiamese]

I dont want to see anyone leave catsey either, there are genuine accidents like random and charlie have exsperienced, but there are some people who deiberately let theire cats out to breed like my mates friend who i mentioned earlier, everyone is entitled to theire opinions but at the end of the day all we can do is give advice and try and change peoples way of thinking, not give people an ear hole bashing and put them down in front of others, it just puts people off of coming to the forum! Its supposed to be a place for animal lovers not bitching at each other ;)

[borderdawn]

I dont want to see anyone leave catsey either, there are genuine accidents like random and charlie have exsperienced, but there are some people who deiberately let theire cats out to breed like my mates friend who i mentioned earlier, everyone is entitled to theire opinions but at the end of the day all we can do is give advice and try and change peoples way of thinking, not give people an ear hole bashing and put them down in front of others, it just puts people off of coming to the forum! Its supposed to be a place for animal lovers not bitching at each other ;)
Youre right Lucy, thats exactly what its SUPPOSED to be!

[borderdawn]

I make absolutely NO excuses nor apologies for what I have said its the total and complete truth. I do not buy accidents on this scale, and I will not dress the situation up and make it into something it isnt. Just go read the amount of "accidental" liters on this site in the last 6 months, then come back here and tell me they were all genuine accidents, they were not.

I dont wish to offend anyone personally, and my apologies to anyone who may think otherwise, but we are discussing this now, and when these things are posted on a public forum and met with "oh well, its done" and "oh more kittens yay!" it sends a disturbing message to those genuinely concerned with cat welfare, I dont think this forum should be seen promoting it, do any of you?

I just keep looking at my own Cats and wondering how difficult it really is, to keep your cats inside or at least safe in your own garden? They mean the world to me, It cost me about £60 and half a days effort to ensure the safety of my Cats, I guess others may see that as too much, I dont know, I just cant get my head round all this I really cant, which is why I havent posted in ages, it was getting me down, and coupled with emails from people who were equally concerned by it all, I just stopped looking, it wasnt untill regular posters on here told me about the latest litter, I looked again, I wished I hadnt but the same old, "go on, tell everybody" "whats done is done" attitude struck again and more moggy kittens are on the way, im so thoroughly upset by it all.
Dawn.

[alexgirl73]

I just wanted to add in my 2p worth before I toddle off! I had a PM from another member who felt that Luke was being unfairly picked on, as there have been other accidental litters over the last wee while. Yes there have been, but the difference is this. Those that took place had owners who had TRIED to prevent these from happening! The difference in Lukes case was simply that he knowingly let an unneutered female outside!! I have no idea what his personal circumstances were, and I'm sure he has had problems of late BUT that is no reason for Bella to suffer! Yes the kittens will be loved and have good homes, but in my branch of the CPL alone we have 67 kittens looking for homes!!!! Plus the adult cats and the ones on a waiting list to come in when space (ha ha) appears!!
Rescues up and down the country are overflowing, and in my honest opinion, to deliberately let your cat run the risk of pregnancy is abuse of that animal and a deliberate snub to those who work damn hard for cats welfare. This was a lovely, friendly forum to be a part of, but I'm not going to sit here and say nothing as I feel that is condoning the situation poor Bella now finds herself in.

I applaud those who are now trying to come up with ideas to get the message across, but tbh folks, there are some people you will never get that message across to!! Howeer, I wish you every success with your efforts!

[LucySiamese]

I really think you may as well bash your head against a brick wall to try and put a stop to ignorent people deliberately breeding moggies, its just the same with puppy farms it really upsets me, ive reported loads of puppy dealers in kent and helped towards getting them shut down!

I think anyone that says they have had an accidental litter should keep the kittens until they are neutered then home them rather than selling them for 50 quid to more ignorent people that will let them out to breed! Or like i said earlier give the litter to the rspca and they will spey the cat for free.

[charliebubs]

I make absolutely NO excuses nor apologies for what I have said its the total and complete truth. I do not buy accidents on this scale, and I will not dress the situation up and make it into something it isnt. Just go read the amount of "accidental" liters on this site in the last 6 months, then come back here and tell me they were all genuine accidents, they were not.

I dont wish to offend anyone personally, and my apologies to anyone who may think otherwise, but we are discussing this now, and when these things are posted on a public forum and met with "oh well, its done" and "oh more kittens yay!" it sends a disturbing message to those genuinely concerned with cat welfare, I dont think this forum should be seen promoting it, do any of you?

I just keep looking at my own Cats and wondering how difficult it really is, to keep your cats inside or at least safe in your own garden? They mean the world to me, It cost me about £60 and half a days effort to ensure the safety of my Cats, I guess others may see that as too much, I dont know, I just cant get my head round all this I really cant, which is why I havent posted in ages, it was getting me down, and coupled with emails from people who were equally concerned by it all, I just stopped looking, it wasnt untill regular posters on here told me about the latest litter, I looked again, I wished I hadnt but the same old, "go on, tell everybody" "whats done is done" attitude struck again and more moggy kittens are on the way, im so thoroughly upset by it all.
Dawn.

I just want to respond to this Dawn. I know that you're not picking on anyone in particular but I think it's unfair to say that people on here don't do all they can to keep their cats safe..............okay, maybe some don't, but the majority of us do.

My cats mean the world to me too - they are my babies and what I come home to at the end of every day.

I spend a huge amount of money on my cats - more than I should really :) and if it came down to it, I would go without so that they could have what they need.

I spent more than £250 cat-proofing my garden and making the effort to keep them safe and protected, and have just done the same in my new house. It didn't prevent the accident though and Lily got pregnant. I know that you will say that I should have done more, or should have kept her inside, and perhaps I should :? but she was 14 months old and had never called and I thought it was safe.

I know how strongly you feel about the issue and we all value your opinion and straight-talking - but I think it's unfair to imply that we don't all care about our cats.

[borderdawn]

Fair point Charlie, but I still think its fairly easy to keep a Cat secure, if Lily was kept indoors, and your catflap locked (my friend used a piece of wood inside and out which threaded through 2 brackets to stop it being opened) then she wouldnt of got pregnant, and of course you could of had the kittens aborted, it was early enough when you knew, you chose not to because you wanted to breed from the cat again at a later date, and this option meant you stood a much better chance of that.

I dont mean to imply that nobody cares for their Cats, of course they do, I just saying IMO they didnt do enough to ensure their Cats were safe.

I have just had a quick peek at the first edition of the evening paper, 6 litters for sale, all moggies, 2 of them also say the mother is available too, 4 of them say "beautiful accidents" or words to that effect, it sickens and upsets me greatly.

I KNOW you love your Cats Charlie, I do.
Dawn.

[Soupie]

To be honest as a fairly new member the site does not condone irresponsible breeding at all. Just because support has been given to members who find themselves with an accidental litter on their hands it doesn't mean the whole forum actively support irresponsible breeding :roll: There is a big difference between actively advocating something and supporting someone who finds themselves in a situation.

I find it incredibly judgemental of you Dawn to say that those litters which people say have been accidental are not accidental. It's very easy to say they could have been prevented but you are not that person in that situation and when all is said and done this is an internet forum and how much do we really know about peoples circumstances?

I also think it is impossible for you to categorically say what the perception of this forum is based on a few people's opinions. You are entitled to your own opinion of course but I can see how people might be upset by your comments on here.

I think an article would be a very good idea as an educational tool for people out there who browse on here and for new members. I expect that there are plenty of new members on here who are just getting their first cat or want to go into breeding - an informative article would be a useful way to get information across about irresponsible breeding without ramming it down peoples throats :)

[borderdawn]

To be honest as a fairly new member the site does not condone irresponsible breeding at all. Just because support has been given to members who find themselves with an accidental litter on their hands it doesn't mean the whole forum actively support irresponsible breeding :roll: There is a big difference between actively advocating something and supporting someone who finds themselves in a situation.

I find it incredibly judgemental of you Dawn to say that those litters which people say have been accidental are not accidental. It's very easy to say they could have been prevented but you are not that person in that situation and when all is said and done this is an internet forum and how much do we really know about peoples circumstances?

I also think it is impossible for you to categorically say what the perception of this forum is based on a few people's opinions. You are entitled to your own opinion of course but I can see how people might be upset by your comments on here.

I think an article would be a very good idea as an educational tool for people out there who browse on here and for new members. I expect that there are plenty of new members on here who are just getting their first cat or want to go into breeding - an informative article would be a useful way to get information across about irresponsible breeding without ramming it down peoples throats :)

Then explain to me why this forum sees a lot of new members but the majority never stay? You may also wish to look at other forums and varify what I say about the post numbers etc.. being true.

You can think what you like, I dont care, I care more about the poor cats, its those that are suffering, not peoples ego's! I think you are very naive to believe that supposed experienced pet owners can have such accidents!

[babycakes]

Here here Soupie. ;)

I think if I had come on to join this site today I would be well put off!!! We are not talking about some careless person in the street who got their kid a kitten and did nothing more for it are we? and we know who these people are there are hundreds of them. I know because I actively have these cats and other animals taken away from such families as I do their children when deemed necessary. But then I educate people on owning animals as I do on children.
There are hundreds of people out there having kids and getting it so wrong however what do we do? neuter them all? take all the children away? no we educate people on how to care for their offspring so as the same mistakes cannot be made again. (We are only as good as our trainers). We are all learning and those of us who are making conscious efforts and trying really hard should not be placed in the same category as those who are not.

I think if we follow the suggestions and brilliant ideas that are being made in light of this then we can attempt to make a difference and then and only then can we assess whether it was useful or not.

[borderdawn]

Here here Soupie. ;)

I think if I had come on to join this site today I would be well put off!!! We are not talking about some careless person in the street who got their kid a kitten and did nothing more for it are we? and we know who these people are there are hundreds of them. I know because I actively have these cats and other animals taken away from such families as I do their children when deemed necessary. But then I educate people on owning animals as I do on children.
There are hundreds of people out there having kids and getting it so wrong however what do we do? neuter them all? take all the children away? no we educate people on how to care for their offspring so as the same mistakes cannot be made again. (We are only as good as our trainers). We are all learning and those of us who are making conscious efforts and trying really hard should not be placed in the same category as those who are not.

I think if we follow the suggestions and brilliant ideas that are being made in light of this then we can attempt to make a difference and then and only then can we assess whether it was useful or not.
Thats a very good point, we are talking about regular posters on a Cat forum who are experienced pet owners, allowing their moggy in most cases "baby" Cats to get pregnant by the first Tom that comes along, that stands a fair chance of being infected with lethal diseases that could kill it, the mother and all the kittens, and they are being met with "ahhh more kittens, how fab!" yes good point Babycakes. :)
Dawn.

[babycakes]

Maybe your right they did do it on purpose. But I think unless we move on from the subject we can keeping calling people and expressing our disappointment until the cows some home.
Yes your upset we all are, but you are making other people upset now too. You have made your point and it is clearly a very good and valid one but surely we need to go back to educating rather than condoning

[borderdawn]

Maybe your right they did do it on purpose. But I think unless we move on from the subject we can keeping calling people and expressing our disappointment until the cows some home.
Yes your upset we all are, but you are making other people upset now too. You have made your point and it is clearly a very good and valid one but surely we need to go back to educating rather than condoning
I completely agree we should NEVER of been condoning, and i never have, but its the fact it has and is being condoned that the site is suffering. As I have said and I will say again, I have no wish to personally attack anyone and I don not doubt for one second that the people on here care for their cats, but while we are on Catsey thats what we are discussing.

I am happy to help with anything that will stop this, but given that the "accidental" litters on here are ALL from experienced pet owners, do you think we can achieve anything, while you get the "oooohh aaahhh" comments and "oh dont worry, its done" attitude?
Dawn.

[babycakes]

Check out the other site titled 'any idea?' you may be able to provide some vital information that will help to support this issue

[Jac]

Firstly, Catsey is the only cat site I come on. The other's I don't care for. I was/am a member of Dogsey. I left a long time ago as it was getting far too big. I think the article SB wrote was fantastic. She was a lovely lady and very informative and helpful.
If we can copy this but change the statistics to cats wonderful.

May I also put my 2p worth in. I chose to buy two ragdolls, therefor took away two homes from moggies. Is that what your saying?
YES there are some accident litters, we have proof here on the forum. If these people pass on what happened to them it may make someone shut a window or stay in the garden. Fact is accidents happen.
I for one would much rather a person felt safe enough to come forward and say....help this is what has happened than sit worrying not knowing where to turn or what to do.
I also do not want anyone to leave because they have had a litter that was a genuine accident.
There are some that just want a litter and say it was an accident. These people we have to educate. Never will we stop accidents but even if one person thinks about it then hey that's progress.
I dont believe in a lot of things, there again I don't ram them down people's throats either. However thoes who add to the ferral population or breed just for the sake of it. Well that's another story.

Catsey is a small happy (most of the time) place to be. We can talk about anything not only our Cats. Please lets keep it this way.

[Rosie]

I do not agree with the amount of cats being borne but I also don't agree with the amount of cats/dogs being bred and the amount of money breeders make from their cats/dogs. If you go on to any of the sites such as Loot there are literally thousands of dogs/cats which are pedigree bred what about putting restrictions on those. I am not saying there are not some responsible breeders but I personally know some (more in the dog world) who breed purely for money to me that is just as bad and just as irresponsible.

[babycakes]

I was trying to make this point earlier. It seems that only overbreeding, unwanted litters and spreading of diseases only goes on in moggies. I know it's more common in moggies but it does go on in pedigrees and it doesn't make it ok to only condemn the owners of moggies

[borderdawn]

I was trying to make this point earlier. It seems that only overbreeding, unwanted litters and spreading of diseases only goes on in moggies. I know it's more common in moggies but it does go on in pedigrees and it doesn't make it ok to only condemn the owners of moggies
Again I agree with you Babycakes, there are plenty of pedigree cat breeders that just produce kittens for the sake of it, in fact its commonplace, its more rare for a Cat breeder NOT to keep anything they have bred than if it were a dog, I find this just displays the typical, "breeding to supply the pet market" to be apparent for the most part. Of course there are always going to be genuine people that breed only because they want another themselves, and to keep their line going and to show another, these, at least to me are the genuine breeders who are really concerned about their breed and will not breed solely for the reason of profit, as it does not benefit a Cat to be bred from, so why else is it done? it just succeeds in flooding the pet market.
Dawn.

[Kim]

I think we have to be realistic here. Accidents DO happen, it wasn't Random's fault that a randy Tom got into her house and made her cat pregnant, at least she was responsible abut it. I think there is a big difference between Random and the vast amounts of people who purposely let their cats have litters without the slightest thought of neutering and welfare. These are the people we need to be educating. Az's article is a good idea, even it it makes just 1 person think twice.

I have made my thoughts & feelings known here before. I do not agree with breeding of moggies at all. I was a volunteer at an Animal Sanctuary for many years and have seen first hand how many unwanted cats & kittens there are, to purposely add to the number is irresponsible in my opinion. Even if you can find homes for the kittens, wouldn't it have been better if that home had a kitten from the CP or rescue? I don't believe we will ever 'run out' of moggies either!

For what it's worth I'm sorry but I don't agree with what Luke did either.

[Donna]

I would like to know what makes somebody so different from myself? When I got my two female kittens I knew they had to be vaccinated and I knew they had to be neutered. Both were done as soon as possible.

We need to find out why people think differently to what I see as "normal". Why do people delay etc (and money is not the issue as I never have any as most people on here that know me already know).

My stance on this is simple; both moggies and pedigrees should not be bred in such a casual manner. Moggies should NEVER be bred from and pedigrees should NEVER be bred for monetary gain (pet market). I agree with Dawn on a lot of points, but just dont have the balls to say to be honest!!

I cant remember the people who have had accidental litters, but I am not having a go at any of them, and I must of missed the thread regarding Bella, so am not judging anybody here personally.

[babycakes]

It's a very difficult subject and one that I struggle with. :roll:
I think you are right too Donna in saying 'we need to find out why people think differently'. It isn't always common sense unfortunately, even when we think it is and changes in the world don't occur by tutting and wagging our fingers at what we don't agree with, neither does chatisment and condemnation, as we are all aware when we are told off we go into child mode and either stop listening or we act defensively, it's human nature unfortunately. Education and looking for alternative solutions does work as does pulling rescources together, as is what is occuring on other threads. Sometimes experiences such as this produce excellent results and maybe we are all not doing enough preventative work only picking up this pieces of the aftermath. Which will continue unless we make a stance and educate.:?

[MrsH]

It's quite obvious that we need to be more upfront about our opposition to careless breeding, but as Donna said what is it that makes other people think otherwise?

I feel there are still quite a few people out there with a very outdated idea of what it means to be a cat owner. When I was a child, in the area where I grew up it was common to put a cat out at night because " that's what they do, they're hunters", and unwanted kittens were very swiftly disposed of by drowning (!) It doesn't bear thinking about I know, but this was an attitude very prevalent 40 years ago, no-one would have ever considered vaccinating a cat, or paying to get one as a pet.

Thank goodness attitudes have improved so much since then, let's not lose sight of how far we've come, not far enough I know, but we have made progress. As responsible members of a responsible forum we owe it to cats to stand up for what we believe and if we at Catsey have a reputation of being a forum that condones careless breeding then we should hang our heads in shame. I feel at the very least we should have a thread such as has been suggested and I also feel Yola's ideas (on other thread) will have strong support.

[kado]

All my cats are neutered/speyed as earliest as i could. I have seen in my area so many llitters advertised which is wrong. I have looked at other web sites but i dont go on. This site gives me so much information that i find invalulable some of it that i didnt know existed at all.


jane

[Jac]

I have been a member of Catsey for sometime now. It was a friendly site where people could talk about anything. Now I fear if there is an "accident" through a window or a cat gets into your house through a back or front door. A propper accident then the person involved wont come forward for help and support. So sad.

Unfortunatly my great grandad had a farm, they didnt spay or neuter they drowned the kittens. As someone said look at the progress made.

[Elaine]

Catsey has seen several members that have asked for advice and support who have still done nothing about having their animals neutered/spayed. We currently have an un-neutered Tom and well as un-spayed female moggies on the board.
My intention has never been to "personally" offend people here but atleast try to understand that I am also personally offended by the on going plight of ferals and unwanted cats. I feel passionately about cats and other animals.
I am not a perfect cat owner and have much to learn but I know and understand the basics.
In part we need to educate but we also need to be more honest about how we trully feel about the situation.

[Jac]

I personally have an un neuterd tom and an un spayed female.

[Elaine]

I personally have an un neuterd tom and an un spayed female.

Oh Jac, I am talking moggies, please stop trying to make this into some personal attack against you because it isnt.

[Jac]

I'm not Elaine. OK we all know Caspurr is going to get the snip. 1/ when he is well enough and 2/ when he is big enough. As for Abi we will see not decided if I'm going to breed with her or not.

Just say though someone with a moggie went through what I did with Caspurr. They also had an intact breeding female. The boy is the moggie and caught the female before he was strong enough. Now that would be an accident wouldnt it?

What I'm saying there is genuine accidents, not free roaming entire females. Would that person feel free to post after this? I dont think so. My point Catsey has lost something.

[Erin]

Milo and Tinkerbell are both un neutured and un spayed but tinker bell is being done tomorow and Milo will be being done next month.

[dandysmom]

Firstly, Catsey is the only cat site I come on. The other's I don't care for. I was/am a member of Dogsey. I left a long time ago as it was getting far too big. I think the article SB wrote was fantastic. She was a lovely lady and very informative and helpful.
If we can copy this but change the statistics to cats wonderful.

May I also put my 2p worth in. I chose to buy two ragdolls, therefor took away two homes from moggies. Is that what your saying?
YES there are some accident litters, we have proof here on the forum. If these people pass on what happened to them it may make someone shut a window or stay in the garden. Fact is accidents happen.
I for one would much rather a person felt safe enough to come forward and say....help this is what has happened than sit worrying not knowing where to turn or what to do.
I also do not want anyone to leave because they have had a litter that was a genuine accident.
There are some that just want a litter and say it was an accident. These people we have to educate. Never will we stop accidents but even if one person thinks about it then hey that's progress.
I dont believe in a lot of things, there again I don't ram them down people's throats either. However thoes who add to the ferral population or breed just for the sake of it. Well that's another story.

Catsey is a small happy (most of the time) place to be. We can talk about anything not only our Cats. Please lets keep it this way.
Very well put, Jac!

[dandysmom]

I'd like to add that all the cats I've had over my lifetime, moggy and pedigreed, male and female were spayed/castrated. Even the ginger tom I grew up with over 60 years ago when it was not common practice, as MrsH pointed out.
Lets get back to the topic now, can we....?

[Jac]

I honestly think this should be put to bed. Everyone had had there say.

[dandysmom]

I second the motion, Jac' let's move on........!!!

[Het]

I am all for anything that reduces the number of unwanted cats/kittens in rescue, however I am extremely saddened and disappointed at the way people whose cats have had litters have been treated, and the way they have been made to feel , in particular Luke. I think its ridiculous that he has felt obliged to leave this board due to some peoples attitude!!
My Siamese had a pedigree litter a few years ago, should I feel bad about that, or is that 'allowed'?

Catsey is better than this, and while I think we should do all we can to promote awareness of the huge problem of indiscriminate breeding, I also think we should remember we are primarily a community who share a love of our animals, and provide support to our members and friends.

[dandysmom]

Well said....!!

[Az]

I think some valid points have been made (and some not-so-valid ones).

To begin with, and in short, yes we (as in all cat lovers everywhere not just here) need to make more people aware of the problems and the plight of animals in rescue - but no, we do not allow public floggings or 'bitchy', nasty, condescending tones and behaviour. Nobody has the right to treat another member like s***. We are not like the other forums in that respect - and that's something I am very proud of (and you should be too!). As I have always said, in all of the sites that I admin - there are ways and means to get your point across.

So - where do we go from here? Well I will be creating some posting guidelines for Catsey, similar to as we have on Dogsey - because we need to spell out what we deem is and is not acceptable behaviour. And I will be pushing ahead with the mod scheme - perhaps to begin with ask one or two of our Golbal Mods from Dogsey to pop over to help train Catsey's own mods, to do things in accordance with our rule book on Dogsey (as it will pretty much be the same here). I have generally let Catsey self-regulate, but as we are growing now we need to start enforcing our rules.

Of course I can see that some topics are very emotive, and some things upset people (although that still doesn't give anyone the right to be 'nasty') but in those instances 9 times out of a 10 an article could easily be written that goes into detail as to why such and such is not acceptable, or why some practises are considered unethical/irresponsible. Again it all boils down to how you get your point across.

This posting is not directed at any one person or any one situation - it's clarification of what Catsey is about and probably more importantly what it isn't about.

Now back on topic for this thread. If you have anything to say about the above or anything posted before this post (except for the 1st post) then use the feedback section - otherwise we'll be here forever.

Who would like to work on updating SB's article to reflect on the cat world? Please say so again even if you have already done so.

In addition I think it might be a good idea to start a new thread or perhaps even a have your say section where people can put their opinion across on the matter with reasons to back them up (so not just a pointless rant thread - give people something to think about, something that might make them think the same as you too - it's all about raising awareness and education remember!!). So I will get on that and get it sorted soon.

In the meantime - thank you everyone for taking the time to post in this thread, and your continued support for Catsey. Bout time we got a mod team sorted, we did well to do without for so long so you can all pat yourselves on the back :-D

[dandysmom]

And thank you, Az for the above. I think it was needed .....

[borderdawn]

Just to say I too am adding a section on my website to raise awareness of iressponsible breeding and how people can get help with it if they need it.
Dawn.

[Kazz]

Why not put the copy on here Dawn.

[Elaine]

Just to say I too am adding a section on my website to raise awareness of iressponsible breeding and how people can get help with it if they need it.
Dawn.

I never realised you had your own web site Dawn. I would be very interested to see it.